Experiential marketing, innovation and empathy with Dawn Payne

David: 0:02

Welcome to this new episode of Before the Applause with me, your host, David Watson. In this episode, I'm joined by Dawn Payne, chief executive and co-founder of no ordinary dream-making machine and creative experience, atelier Aurora. From her bedroom in Bootle to the biggest of boardrooms, Dawn is a pioneering but playful leader with an extraordinary story that's worth listening to.

David: 0:25

She's worked for huge brands such as Atari, Nintendo and Universal Pictures Entertainment and getting there was because of her dedication to developing a deep understanding of the art and science of marketing that would ultimately help break new ground for these monolithic brands and reach millions of us around the world. She's a rebel with a cause underpinned by a sense of playfulness, curiosity and passion, and she's broken down any barriers that could have been in her way and ensured that her seat at the table when she got it was not for what many thought was for minute-taking purposes, but actually leading generation-defining campaigns for products such as Nintendo Wii and DS, just as the ones that reached and inspired her back home in Bootle. Grab a cup of something nice and join us as we discover more. Before the applause Dawn. Welcome to the show.

Dawn: 1:13

Hello David, thank you for having me.

David: 1:16

Very, very welcome. You've had such a fascinating career in the creative industries which I've been learning about, and particularly your background in like high performance marketing, which is something that is so critical in the creative industries which I've been learning about, and particularly your background in like high performance marketing, which is something that is so critical in the creative industries because we're trying to sell a product, connect audiences, which often goes under the radar or everyone thinks we're a marketeer. So I think this is a really interesting conversation with you, and particularly because some of the brands that I know you've worked with.

Dawn: 1:43

Yeah.

David: 1:44

So I think the first thing will be really great is if you could talk a little bit about your career, like where did it begin? What have you been doing? Set the scene for us.

Dawn: 1:55

Okay, so in the beginning I was a kid growing up in Bootle, which is a really working class part of Liverpool. Growing up in bootle, which is a really working class part of liverpool um, my dad was a builder, mum was a cleaner. Um, got myself off to university, um, uh, did my degree in marketing, so marketing has kind of always been in my blood really um, where I went to lancaster, which is a really good uni for it, um, but the bit that had kind of also been a big part of my life was playing video games. So way back when and this is so deeply aging but I'm going to share it anyway we're talking kind of 81, 82 here Me and my brother misspent youth playing BBC Micro ZX Spectrum Commodore 64.

David: 2:43

Love it.

Dawn: 2:43

Two o'clock in the morning when my parents thought we were kind of fast asleep to school the next day, literally our fingers nearly bleeding, playing Daily Decathlon on our ZX Spectrum. So I think I was always destined to kind of get into the games industry in particular, which is where I've spent quite a bit of my career. But actually more broader than that, I'm kind of a massive kind of I'm a massive kind of film, tv, pop culture nerd. So I think that, coupled with my marketing degree, predestined me for a career predominantly in the entertainment industry actually. But kind of main summary of kind of the career bit really is I worked in the games industry for quite a long time. So I worked at playstation for little bit. I worked at Atari for a while and led one of their European teams.

Dawn: 3:31

But then my career love affair was my 10 years at Nintendo, which was mind-blowing really it's kind of probably no other way to describe it and it was just such an incredible life defining experience for me. Really it's kind of made me. It's made me hopefully the leader and probably the human being that I am through the experience that I had there, not just in terms of, obviously, the incredible products that we got to work on. So we launched the Wii and the DS and led all of that kind of blue ocean market transformation and about 15 years ago. But the best bit and I talked to my team about this quite a bit is that I had the honor of almost reporting indirectly to our global president, who was a chap called Satoru Iwasa, who sadly passed away seven years ago, and he was an incredible leader Nintendo's been around for about 125 years, which not many people know.

Dawn: 4:30

Um, so you know it kind of innovation, playfulness and gaming has always been in nintendo's dna, kind of, when it kind of was originally founded in the late 19th century. Um, it was kind of it was playing cards, so almost like kind of pokemon trading cards family-run company for um about 100 years or more, and then satoru awasa came along and revolutionized the company. So he was the person that had the vision to imagine gaming and being taken out of the boy's bedroom being democratized, becoming something that anyone of any age, any gender, could play, so being able to work really closely with him. He was an engineer by trade but he was deeply interested in the human condition, so he spent a lot of time understanding the art and science of marketing. So we had I've worked in corporate since we had the most ridiculous level of marketing. So we had I've worked in corporate since we had the most ridiculous level of access to him as a leader, and for many, you know, he's a kind of Japanese equivalent of Steve Jobs. So you know he kind of he taught us how to think differently, how to um, you know he, he was an incredible person. He was like my lecturer really he was akin to that notion of the greatest teacher I ever had.

Dawn: 5:49

I got to work with him for eight years. He used to give his leadership teams a reading list every eight weeks. So every eight weeks he'd say I'm coming over, we're going to go through all your marketing plans. Here are the three books I want you to read and I want you to take me through your marketing plans. But I also want you to talk to me about how you've made sense of the reading material in your marketing plans wow just mind-blowing sweet to have us reading things like the art of war.

Dawn: 6:18

Blue ocean strategy was our textbook launch of the we um, seth godin pretty much everything from seth godin um and many, many, many other books as well, as you can probably imagine. So it's just incredible really. If you think about it's a corporate culture, big global brand, but that almost quite academic style of leadership was very, very inspiring to me and as a human being. He was very, um, very humble, very humble. He'd be the nicest person in the world and if you ever said, oh, we've done really well, but you started to crow about the fact that we'd had a really good year, that would be the point when he would literally take you down at the knees. It's a very spiritual person as well. Actually, he talked to us quite a lot about and you know when somebody has such profound influence on you, you know you remember a lot of their kind of teachings, in a way yeah and, um, he used to talk to us about this idea of there's no such thing as success, so it was quite existential.

Dawn: 7:25

Really there's no such thing as success, so it was quite existential. Really there's no such thing as success and even if there is, that's only the byproduct of really good planning and lots of luck, and that's really always massively stuck with me of and I you know if often I think any of us think about our lives. Often those moments in life will be right place, right time, right connection, right person, so, um, so yeah, so that was, um, that was an incredible part of my career. And then, being some kind of crazy lady, I've been there for 10 years and I wanted to challenge myself. I think I was having some like turned 40.

Dawn: 7:58

I think I was having some kind of midlife crisis, like I can't be the video games lady anymore, um, so I then moved to Universal Pictures because, again, I'm a massive kind of film nerd, very interesting developmentally, really quite corporate, probably too corporate for me, very American. Lots of spent my life on a video conference call and my head buried in spreadsheets, which wasn't a good place for me, as you can probably imagine, david.

David: 8:26

Yeah, no, that's not, that's not dull and that's not dull at all.

Dawn: 8:29

That's not really me actually. It's not my best, it's not my happy place and and so essentially after I left Universal I think I've decided that I wanted to because I'd always been. That it's a bit of a weird word but it kind of works. This notion of being an entrepreneur, that was definitely what I was at Nintendo, even though I didn't know I was at the time. So I as almost inexorably I'd had to kind of move out of Liverpool, work for those big corporate jobs for about 15 to 20 years down in London, and then took the opportunity to move back home to get close to my parents again as they were getting older, and then really started heading towards the idea of kind of building up my own business and actually making the full jump from entrepreneur to.

Dawn: 9:14

you know that I say entrepreneurs similar to entrepreneurs, not really the level of risk is not the same you know the risk is that you'll get told off by your boss or the risk is that you might even get sacked, but it's not the same as the challenge of paying people's salaries, making sure that you're keeping the wheels on the track and all the rest of it. So, yeah, valerie and I, my business partner, we launched Aurora two and a half years ago and, yeah, I'm sure we'll want to talk about that a little bit more. But, yeah, lots of gaming, entertainment, trying to do things differently, annoying people on the way, and always just in the pursuit of trying to do things that haven't been done before. I think it's always been at the beating heart of what I've tried to do.

David: 10:01

And going back before you decided to go to uni to study marketing, you said you had a love for video games. Did you know at that point it was oh, I wanted to sell them. Or did you not have the creative thing of like I want to make them? What was?

Dawn: 10:23

that bit in between stopping playing games with your brother at 2am before you made that decision to go, I'm going to study marketing. There wasn't actually a direct correlation, if truth be told. I think there was just a looser connection between enjoying, I guess, even in its formative sense, immersive storytelling, so, and characterisation and kind of of and just play. Actually play is quite important to me, just quite fundamentally in how I live my life. So I think that's why entertainment, gaming, kind of really work for me. I was having a chat with one of my team the other day. We were having a bit of a chat about values and culture and um, the word fun for me it's really kind of we have a naff word, isn't it fun? It's a bit like oh, that's fun um, but it's really important to me. I'm kind of a real believer and I kind of think sometimes that idea of fun and play um are not allowed in kind of the work vocabulary, whereas the best teams I've ever worked in um are very fun at their core why, why?

David: 11:28

why do you think it's not allowed? What do you think the reason is?

Dawn: 11:32

I think well, I mean from my experience in other corporate cultures that it's a bit silly, a bit foolish, it's not serious enough, um so, so yeah, I, uh, I always railed against that idea. Um, I don't know, I just think, in business generally, I think some quite dare I say grown-up businesses still think you know certain sectors yeah I think the idea of having fun in your kind of company values in some legacy industries and things would be heresy I would imagine but I think I think it's interesting when you apply that idea of fun or or that joy within the creative industries, because that's what we create for other people, right, but yeah, it would make sense that we embrace that as a value as well.

David: 12:17

But you're right, I don't think it's a consistent thing or it might have felt that you know, when the the world shifted of how we run companies and what the culture is and the way we create. Maybe it was the Google effect, you know, like the Google HQ and everyone's like they've got a slide in there. Really, yes. Maybe that was kind of why everyone retracts from it, but that's not what the execution of fun isn't going down the slide, it's actually the joy, isn't it?

Dawn: 12:44

And feeling the good hormones from what you're creating and doing percent, and I think it's the idea, isn't it, of, like the google thing, of that the bit around forced fun yeah is where it's almost got a bit of a.

Dawn: 12:57

So there's almost it's got a bit of a bad rep from a slightly cringe perspective and it's got a bit of a bad rep from the kind of grownups, if you like. But again, that's been a really important part of who I am, which is the and I think it becomes more important the older one gets which is the bit around never growing up.

David: 13:15

Yeah, you just touched on. Oh, I had to move away from Liverpool.

Dawn: 13:19

Yeah.

David: 13:20

To pursue this career, and this is something we should like discuss quite a lot within the creative industries and happens all the time We've got to leave. How did that make you feel? Did you feel like you wanted to be here and have that career and it could happen, or it wasn't an option and you had to?

Dawn: 13:37

leave, obviously, I mean way back when we're kind of going to the kind of early to mid 90s here. And I think you know the incredible thing, of course, is that Liverpool has transformed beyond all belief, hasn't it, you know, particularly the last 15 years or so, since the whole city of culture. You know, growing up as a kid in the 70s, I mean I laugh about it it was literally the boys from the black stuff, I mean that that wasn't a caricature, that was growing up as a, you know, working class kid in Liverpool and industry wasn't here and we were very much, you know, managed to decline and kind of feeling that in a very kind of visceral way. So, um it, it's quite sad to actually say out loud that it just seemed impossible to ever imagine that I could have a kind of a, you know, an interesting creative career with big brands. I still think, actually, for Liverpool, I think it still has a way to go if.

Dawn: 14:40

I'm honest, still now in terms of bringing in bigger brands into the city that's a whole other conversation when actually Liverpool is such an incredible place you know has been manifested through Eurovision and many moments before it but for whatever reason, it's not really grown at the same level as a Manchester or Leeds or some of those other places which are somehow managing to get those bigger anchor pillar organizations to kind of relocate. I mean, obviously it still upsets me enormously the Channel 4 didn't move to Liverpool and to me that was just bonkers anyway. So but I think now actually I think that I think the world is a completely different place actually and I would hope that think the world is a completely different place actually and I would hope that there is more opportunity in Liverpool and I think in the whole way that we now can build our careers. I mean particularly, I think about the games industry. Now, for example, many of the games companies are fully virtual, so you know a lot of the games companies. Now you can literally be based anywhere, which I think is fantastic and for us, obviously, for Valerie and I to build our business in Liverpool, that's also been an accelerant for us as well, which is that whole bit around.

Dawn: 15:53

Caroline Norbury of Creative England always used to say this to me Creative UK, as now, is that that really important mantra of talent is everywhere but opportunity isn't, and I do think one of the massive despite the horror of COVID that giving a level playing field for talent has been transformational, really. That said, the only other thing I would say is that I did have a moment where I did zip back to Liverpool a little bit for my career, because a quite little known fact is that Liverpool has, and currently still has, a very strong gaming culture to it already. So I worked at PlayStation here, where PlayStation had a wholly owned subsidiary called Psygnosis in the mid to late 90s who created their most cutting-edge seminal PlayStation 1 games, where they were starting to mash kind of gaming and popular culture and music and all of those things together and so. So that gave me an opportunity to come back to Liverpool for a little bit to work for PlayStation, but then I ended up going back down south again to work for, to work for Nintendo.

Dawn: 16:54

So, um, but I love being back. I mean, it's just I've been back for seven years now and it's the the best thing I ever did, because I can still get my lovely London life and hop down there for client meetings and all the rest of it, but then you get the. You know the. You know the creative center of the universe, as Alan Ginsberg described it.

Dawn: 17:13

So, you know what's not to love about living in a place like that.

David: 17:17

And the world. You know the shift in the pandemic. What it enabled is, it does allow us to be different and to to be part of a bigger world creatively, and I think that's really important when we have, you know, great universities, here, you know, and everywhere where people want to be in industries. Was there ever a time you ever thought you this would never work for you and you'd get into what you wanted to do? Because actually, a was, I would probably say correct me if I'm wrong quite a male-dominated world? Yes, and particularly doing heading up marketing for these major companies, and it still is. When you look at the numbers, we get certain, I suppose, higher profile individuals that get showcased, because it is still quite unique for a woman to be leading marketing. But did you ever think it was never going to happen? And how was it navigating that probably quite intimidating world, even though I know you're not easily intimidated, my love.

Dawn: 18:16

I know um, so it it is quite interesting, I mean, I think, particularly at nintendo. I mean I never reflect back on it. I think it's just bonkers really. So I was the um, I was in a really unique position and it's kind of really. It's really brilliant for me personally, but it's kind of terrible on another level. So I was the most senior female in the company globally, um, and I was only a marketing director, um, but and so it was really it.

Dawn: 18:47

It's a funny kind of anecdote. I might have said this to you before um, so when I was a couple of years into the role and again, I was quite young, when I was a marketing director there, I was only about I don't know 34 or something, and um, so we go into these big global meetings, it. I was kind of like a kid from boot camp. So I managed to get into the you know, the big meeting and there'd be like 50 men at the table, of which 30 of them would be Japanese, 19 Western men, all pretty much Japanese, 45 and upwards and me with this woman sat at the table. And I kid you not, um, I think, for the first six to twelve months, I think particularly some of my Japanese colleagues were looking at me as if to say when's she going to start writing the notes up? Um, so it it was. It was a kind of a really odd situation in that I think, to your point, my natural personality is such that of course we absolutely get imposter syndrome, and I still get it now. I still have moments of, oh my God, I'm not good enough and you know I'm going to get caught out or whatever it might be. But I think ultimately my own drive and attack kind of always powered me through and I then almost flipped it into. I then became the voice of women globally in the company.

Dawn: 20:18

So you know, when it came to market expansion, how do we target women? We perhaps unsurprisinglyprisingly disproportionately performed as a uk market because there was a woman at the helm. So, um, a lot of our marketing was so much more because obviously in the other markets it was marketing to women being led by men, um, whereas actually in the uk we were the only market where. So what happened was that the UK disproportionately performed during that period of what we called user expansion. And you know, we had 40, 50, 60, 70 something, women playing video games, which was just an absolute joy to be kind of part of pretty radical market transformation, really.

Dawn: 21:05

So, yeah, but I absolutely understand that I think if you're perhaps a little bit less gung-ho, you're a little bit less extrovert, you've maybe got more self-doubt, um, then I can imagine that that would be really, really hard. So what I now try to do, um, in a number of different ways, through particularly mentoring and I'm in a really incredible group called wackle, which is women in advertising communications leadership I try to spend a lot of time with younger women that are coming through the ranks to, to give them tips and tricks and advice and and kind of also share some of the howlers and the mistakes, because I think that's you know, sometimes people kind of think, oh, everything's just gone perfectly, whereas the reality, as we all know, is that our careers are complete roller coasters, and so, yes, that would be my kind of answer on that.

David: 21:56

No, brilliant, and you spoke about risk before.

Dawn: 22:01

Yeah.

David: 22:01

And I've been. I was thinking about preparing for this kind of conversation around the level of risk in, I suppose, more of the commercial world of gaming versus theatre performance. And I wonder how you deal with that pressure, because we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars on the line and I know it's proportionate. You know there could be a million pounds or two, but I wondered how you deal with that pressure, being in such an exposed position as maybe the only female director.

David: 22:33

You know this is a global market and if that campaign you're running doesn't work, I wondered how you deal with that pressure, because it feels to me it is significantly more intense.

Dawn: 22:52

See, I think now I've worked at a corporate, yeah, now I run my own business. This is going to sound crazy. I actually think there's much more pressure running a small business a fact you know we want to. We're growing our business and it's growing quickly and all the rest of it, um, but I've given that I've sat at both sides of big corporate own business in the big corporates.

Dawn: 23:14

I talked about Iwata-san earlier.

Dawn: 23:28

I think he fostered a culture of measured risk as well.

Dawn: 23:33

So I think he comes back to kind of high performing team and creating the right conditions to take risks and I think with him, I think so long as you know, we had a clear strategy and a plan and that if we executed it and it didn't work, I think so long as he could see the rigor in the analysis and that we were learning from it and that we kind of not make those mistakes again and that actually when we did that campaign but we slightly tweaked it in a different way and then we to have an explosively successful campaign then.

Dawn: 24:09

So I think we were fortunate. I think in in that and the the chap that I was also working for was the uk md of nintendo as well. I think he was also a really good kind of partner to me as well. So I always felt quite which again, I think it kind of comes back to the, the power of your colleagues and the teams that you're working with, such that it kind of doesn't actually feel as though it's purely on your shoulders, I think, which is really important.

David: 24:36

And you've just mentioned something which is really important to this podcast is the team thing. Yeah, you know, this podcast is about before the applause. It is everybody and everyone before that. Yeah, is about before the applause it is everybody and everyone before that. Yeah, I wondered if you could just talk to us a little bit about what does it really take to make a video game and who's involved, because I don't think many people really understand maybe the skill sets that are there and the opportunities for them.

Dawn: 24:59

I mean it's, it's, you know, obviously the games industry now is the biggest entertainment industry in the world. I was I can't remember what the global stats are. I was looking at the us data yesterday and you know the? U the us video games industry is now worth 85 billion. I mean, that's just the us.

Dawn: 25:15

So obviously now games releases, the big kind of triple a titles, are as big, if not bigger, now than some of the most big, you know, movie launches. So I think that that, I think perhaps gives a sense of the kind of you know the than some of the most big movie launches. So I think that perhaps gives a sense of the kind of the upper end of the scale of it. I mean in terms of kind of the way that the games are made. And this was in my time at Psygnosis, which was part of PlayStation, which gave me a really good feel around the production process actually because my degree had been around strategic marketing, new product development was a big part of it. So essentially, games will typically take and this is kind of like, for you know, you can do games much more quickly. You can create little quick mobile games. Turn one of those around in three to six months To create a really big blockbuster game. You're typically looking at two, three, four years from kind of concept at two, three, four years in from kind of concept through to kind of global launch of the game. And then you're looking at a development process of um, and again I think it's very similar to the film industry. So you'll have an initial concept um. You'll have a games team working on that and again those teams now can be 50, 100, 200 people based people.

Dawn: 26:26

Basically. You know, if you're looking at Fortnite or something like that, you know you're looking at massive global teams In terms of the kind of team composition and the roles and the skill sets that you're looking at. You're looking at a producer that kind of sits across the whole process. You're looking at a whole bunch of kind of designers. You're looking at CG artists a whole bunch of kind of designers. You're looking at cg artists. You're looking at um game designers who will think about the nuts and bolts of the gameplay and the mechanic. And then obviously you'll you'll have a whole bunch of programmers. You'll have musicians, um, you'll have kind of composers, you'll have script writers.

Dawn: 27:01

So just even talking out loud, you can hopefully get the parallels in terms of film and games really, and I think the games industry possibly more than film actually, because I've obviously worked in both except not Nintendo, because Nintendo don't let the marketers anywhere near the games. At Nintendo it's Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. So you don't know what's coming out of that chocolate factory until it's ready, whereas with pretty much all the other game studios battery. So you don't know what's coming out of that chocolate battery until it's ready, um, whereas with all, pretty much all the other game studios, so ea, ubisoft, microsoft and all the rest of it. They'll actually bring in their marketers and often they'll also bring in content creators into the game development process as well. So they'll work with a lot of creators and a lot of influencers. They'll work with a lot of streamers, a lot of youtubers, and increasingly they're bringing them right into the start of the process as well, so that it's got a kind of a.

David: 27:53

They're ensuring that they've got relevance, deep understanding of the target audience and feeding into the game development process all the way through and I was going to ask you about that piece about where marketing sits, because I think it's something that is around, I suppose, value of understanding what marketing can do, and you've kind of articulated where do you get into the process? And I think over the years particularly the games industry has gone stratospheric. It's completely different. And do you feel marketing has been valued in the right way within that sector? Because I can probably say from experience doing marketing and other, you know normally you'll you get thought about last, or you're not a part of that process, or everyone's a marketeer, or when it's a success it's everyone's success and when it doesn't work it's a marketing problem. I just wondered, like, as you've navigated this world, what's it truly been like leading marketing in such a changing world?

Dawn: 28:51

I think actually in the entertainment industries, I think particularly film and games I do think marketing is actually perceived to be extremely important, I think within the mix actually, and I think that's both at the kind of CEO level. I think the game developers and the game publishers, I think, really understand the importance of it as well, because I think, particularly in the um and this is quite interesting and it happens less now, I think, because of social media but if you think about it, I mean, how many films, how many games where they weren't actually that good, kind of critically panned, but actually some really quite clever marketing actually was what elevated and kind of transformed the fortunes of the commercial performance of those, of that IP, of those franchises? I think that's becoming more challenging now in an era of kind of critic reviews, people having a deeper understanding of the quality of the product before they get there. But, um, but no, I think that in those sectors actually, I have to say marketing I think is really valued. I think it's interesting now actually being the other side of the table.

Dawn: 30:01

Working for a creative agency. We now work with a whole bunch of other sectors and other clients where it's a little bit more what you're talking about david, which is it's not really understood. It's seen as a cost, not an investment. It's seen as the coloring department. It's seen as everyone's a marketer. Um, so I think, I think, because the entertainment industry is is quite sophisticated now, I mean, if you think about, I mean there's many, many examples, but of course the most recent one is barbie with the the job that they've done on their marketing.

Dawn: 30:39

I mean it's just incredible and the budget was insane.

David: 30:43

I think I read it was 150 million on marketing alone, but it's raked in a billion dollars already, hasn't it?

Dawn: 30:50

I know, and I think that is. I mean, again, that's where it's a holistic process, isn't it? It's not, actually. I think it's another really good example where they brought the marketing in right at the start of the product development process, so that actually the marketing and the product are hand in hand and the two of them are symbiotically feeding into each other, and that's what I think creates the real magic. But without a doubt, I mean, there are so many other sectors where it can be really painful in terms of the case, if you like, for marketing and having to prove the ROI, and quite often in the world that we now live in, because it's much more volatile, budgets are tight. Quite often there'll be a tightening of the budgets. I've always been a believer that brave brands, brave CEOs, brave CMOs when times are tough, that's the time when you can double down into your marketing, because then that will elevate your marketing even more, because everyone else is retrenching.

David: 31:53

So, yes, it is fascinating now being at the other side of the table and the all creative industries have gone through major change and it's definitely something. So in this series of this podcast, change is coming up in every conversation. Um, I think the games industry has probably had one of the most dramatic. With mobile platforms taste like the world has become connected. As a marketeer, how have you navigated that change, I suppose professionally, to be able to keep on top of it? What have been some of the challenges of that navigating change and any tips?

Dawn: 32:26

you've got to do that because we are now in a different world where change is happening daily I think, um, I think this also comes back to almost kind of just general advice, actually, I guess, for other people at different points in their careers. I think the best way I actually think in a very simple way to navigate change is to always be intellectually curious, because I think if you're, if you've always got your head up and you're kind of constantly scanning the horizon and what's happening, I think you're. I mean, of course, there's always going to be things that are going to open the table. It's going to be crazy. Things happen in the world that you could never have anticipated, I, I think. For me, I think any really great marketer or any great business leader for that matter, has got to be deeply curious about what's happening in the world more generally. And I think if you're abreast of the volatility and the changes, I think you will naturally be starting to think about adaptation and pivots and how one can best respond.

Dawn: 33:31

There's a phrase I really passionately believe in as well, which is against the backdrop of change and the world can be quite scary is this piece around necessity? As the mother of invention? Again, having came from environments where I've had huge budgets, anything is possible I get much, much more of a kick out of doing things where you ain't got a penny, and that's where I think true creativity true creativity um, can come from those moments. So I, for me, I think a key tip around kind of changes is around that quite innate piece around curiosity, and I think curiosity can be quite innate, but I think it can also be learned as well. So I think that's one piece.

Dawn: 34:16

I think, just from a personal growth perspective, I've kind of had to. You know, I'm in my early 50s, so I've kind of had to make sure that, particularly working with a younger team of people as well, it's kind of just to make sure that I'm still throwing myself into new experiences, trying new things. Um, I hadn't really been that kind of active or present on Instagram, so I've kind of made sure that you know I'm kind of playing around with that, doing stuff. So I think I think, as a marketer, I think, so long as you are quite active personally in digital experiences, I think the danger that happens and this definitely happens in corporates is that sometimes I think the higher people go up the ladder and you move into these kind of hallowed titles.

Dawn: 35:03

You've got this big strategic remit and all the rest of it. I think the danger is that you become so removed from the consumer and the customer experience that that actually I think can be quite dangerous. So I do love the fact that with the work that we do at Aurora, that we're kind of up there in the stratosphere coming up with these big kind of game changing initiatives. But at the same time I think it's really important to kind of keep it real and kind of know what's happening on the ground and and kind of feeling those changes happening yourself before you know, before it's done to you, if you like yeah, and I think that's something that, as you're, you know navigating your career, you know coming into the industry, you know, like you say, climbing.

David: 35:48

It is really important because of the I think, the workload in the reality, particularly in like theatre dance, you know the teams aren't huge for these companies, so the workload can get quite overwhelming. There's never enough hours in the day and before you know it, you've probably gone a year without actually seeing a show that you're not part of. So you haven't experienced that. You know the visitor journey, going to book a ticket or to get into the air, and I think it you're right it is really critical that you do that, or play and have fun and go and do the new giant monopoly in London and because that's what you can take inspiration and get inspiration from different things that are you know, and.

David: 36:28

I tell my team all the time you know for personal development, go and experience something unique. And it doesn't have. You know, at the moment I look after an exhibitions team. Don't go and see an exhibition, because we're really good at that. Go and see something completely different. And it's about, I suppose, that thing that you said about having your head up and being open to absorb inspiration from different places, and it's about, I suppose, that thing that you said about having your head up and being open to absorb inspiration from different places, and it can come from the strangest places sometimes. You know, one time for me I went to the Flower, the Chelsea Flower Show, and it was just about some of their layout options and about using scent. And that's when I was like, oh, we should be using that potentially in a show. So we're going with the scent here, and I think you can find it in different ways, can't you?

Dawn: 37:12

I, I'm building on that. But something, something that's one of my kind of um secret skills is, um, I'm really good at magpying from kind of other sectors and kind of kind of nicking things but mashing them up and then. But in the mashing of them up it makes it quite different. So I always kind of to your point, I always love looking out of sector for inspiration. So I remember, you know, in the games industry to market to women, for example, I'd be looking at what Marcus and Spencer's were doing in terms of what their marketing campaigns were.

Dawn: 37:44

I was looking at what FMCG were doing and then I started to apply some of those techniques into the games industry and it wasn't actually radical. Well, for the games industry it was radical and it's interesting. Actually, in a couple of weeks I need to make sure I get to see it because I'm slightly obsessed with that. But to your point, I love art, but because I'm so into almost pop culture gaming, film and tv I always need to be careful that that bit doesn't fall off the table. So I'm going to see the the yayoi kizuma oh um exhibition at the factory factory.

Dawn: 38:23

Again, I just know it's going to blow my mind in terms of the installation and what it feels like and I know that off the back of that, that, that something, it will trigger something in me.

David: 38:32

I don't know what it is yeah, and it's interesting because I think, um, you know, we, particularly in the performing arts area, of the creative industries, we do spend too much time looking at each other and not outwardly and like the rest of the world, isn't kind of relevant, and it is important to pick up on some of those things and that's, you know, for me, I agree, and that's how we stay relevant.

David: 38:54

And, you know, try and be entrepreneurial as an organizational brand, not just individuals, because you can get moments of inspiration that work. Or, for me, I often, you know, try and remind people that it's also about watching what people do and when they fail, don't make the same mistake, because we tend to repeat it quite a lot in theatres and festivals. So, on the other hand, it's also going. Don't do that thing. Or, you know, bring the consumer closer, get them to co-produce something. You know, if just because you open the doors, it doesn't mean they will come, um, and sometimes we can get into that. So I do, I agree with you. That whole head up looking out is really important.

Dawn: 39:32

I think I think the other bit, though, I think just in terms of creative inspiration and who was it. I watched a film. Who was it? I think it was a film, uh, I think it was actually. It was like a commercial, it was like a sponsorship film, I think by a brand, but it was talking about. It was Baz Luhrmann talking about what, um, what inspires him and and how he's a creative, and it was that really obvious base.

Dawn: 39:52

But it it really struck a chord with me of it's just even the walking down the street. So it doesn't even have to be a. I'm going to an exhibition, it can just be the, the bit of just watching what's happening, that the most random thing that you see for a split second can suddenly give you a kind of a that eureka moment there was I had my recent version of that was um, we've been rethinking about our aurora kind of purpose and proposition and you know why do we get out of bed, why do we do what we do and all the rest of it? We've been grappling with it for ages. You know we're bloody marketers. It's what we do for our clients all the time. It's always that bit harder when you're doing it for yourself, right?

Dawn: 40:37

Oh yeah, we've been grappling with it for ages. I was like, oh God, we've been working on it for a number of months and, um, I've not actually told her this. She'll laugh when she listens to that. Um, but I was watching, um, an episode of Ted Lasso, which I love. It was Ted Lasso basically started to talk about his philosophy and the Ted Lasso way you know, and and it was. It was one of those moments where in the watching of the show just suddenly was like, oh, started scribbling notes and kind of that, and actually that then kind of triggered us being able to crystallize and finalize our purpose. Um, but again, the inspiration firing in from somewhere completely left of center what would you say?

Dawn: 41:22

aurora is as an agency so we're not an agency oh would probably be the first thing I would say um, so what we are looking to really, I think, challenge the notion of what an agency is or should be. The thing I've experienced from moving to an agency in inverted commas is that often there isn't much agency that comes with being an agency. So what we are really wanting to be is a we've come up with this, this piece around. We're a creative experience and company and and by that we kind of want to come in at a much more strategic level and kind of work with visionary brands, visionary ceos and leaders that want societal level game changing thinking and activations. So of course, we can do all the tactical stuff and we do a lot of kind of day job, brand work and build websites and all the rest of it. We are very, very kind of holistic in our thinking, so we kind of cut right across some kind of strategy through to activation. We create digital products, we create events, we create experiences, we create viral moments, because Valerie and I both believe in this notion of marketing isn't in buckets anymore and you know, people just experience stuff and so we have to make that a delightful joined up experience for them. So so, yeah, that's what we do. We're kind of we work with a whole bunch of kind of national, international clients. Obviously we've got entertainment and gaming in the mix, unsurprisingly but then we do a lot of work with law companies, which is kind of quite interesting, kind of.

Dawn: 43:14

I don't really know how that happened, but anyway, and yeah, we're having a whale of a time. We're kind of it's hard, it's really challenging and for the reasons that I talked about before, but, um, for me it's really important and it is a bit cliche and it's a bit cringe. But you know, I think you've got to try to the best of your ability and treat each day like it's your last, because you just never know. So you have to just try and make sure that you're. You know, I'll often chat to people, particularly when I'm doing coaching or mentoring, and say you know, what would you give, what would you give your, your career, your situation, how do you score it out of 10 at the moment? And I'll hear people going oh, it's five. And you know you're kind of like what, what? What are you doing about that then?

Dawn: 43:56

yeah so so yeah, I think we're, valerie and I are trying to blaze a bit of a trail with the work that we're doing. We're wanting to to build really a really interesting, delightful business liverpool headquarters internationally relevant big bit around. Being out of London is really important for us as well. So obviously there is, you know, such an incredible talent in and around Liverpool. But obviously, because we can be very virtual, we've got a guy based over in Toronto as well, so super kind of global in terms of how we work and very much from a network point of view as well. So we love kind of buddying up with all kinds of different collaborators and contributors and different types of partners as well. So so, yeah, that's hopefully a bit about a bit about us that's brilliant and so taking that is an output of dawn.

David: 44:48

What is it that drives you as a, as an individual? What is the thing that gets you up every morning? Why are you doing? What is it that drives you as a, as an individual? What is the thing that gets you up every morning? Why are you doing? What is your why?

Dawn: 44:57

so my why is to do things that haven't been done before short, and simple.

Dawn: 45:06

I don't know what I don't. I don't know why I've got that as my, why I don't know why it's at the heart of what I am and it's it's taken me a while to be able to articulate it as succinctly as that lots of leadership coaching when I was in corporates, clearly, well, yeah, I just, I just I like being a bit naughty, I like again I was having a chat with one of our team members I love the idea of like female pirates. I love that. I just, I just kind of I I love to, particularly now that I'm older, val, and I get great delight in um confounding people with their perceptions of what we should be doing.

Dawn: 45:48

Yeah, and then, particularly when we start talking about Donald Glover or Jordan Peele or Marvel Comics or whatever aspect of pop culture it is, and that we've probably got more knowledge between us than typically, we challenge most people to be like try and beat us on popular culture kiddo. So, yeah, I like the idea, idea. I think that's probably why I really like somebody like Yayoi um Kazuma. She's like 94, she doesn't care, you know, she's just I'll be like her. Not as cool as her, but I'll be kind of bundling along doing something when I'm not hopefully that's hopefully still doing something like that when I'm 94.

David: 46:31

Absolutely, absolutely. Um. So we're at the part of the the conversation where this gets more interesting and I'm going to allow you to address is there a misconception about your industry that you want to set the record straight on?

Dawn: 46:48

I mean I think it's the one I've just touched on really which I think is I think it's the one I've just touched on really which I think is I think there's a bit around actual female entrepreneurship actually, because if you think about generally how few female entrepreneurs there are, and then obviously you layer into that women of a certain age founding their own business, I think that is something that I think we're really enjoying changing perceptions of that and myth busting around that. It's funny, actually you mentioned earlier, david have I ever kind of felt challenged around my gender or being a working class kid or anything like that? And that's never really been something I've ever felt a challenge with around my career. The thing that I definitely have noticed is ageism in the last few years, which is really disappointing, isn't it, if you think about it. You know I've gone all these years through my career and it's actually the one time that I've kind of really started to notice something and I do think there is a lot of.

Dawn: 47:54

You know people's perceptions of. You know, if you kind of look at me and you probably go, she doesn't. You know what she know about video games like, are you kidding me right now? Um, so I think that's probably still the biggest misconception. Yeah, and I think that actually the wisdom that one gets as one gets older, I think bringing in without getting into wanting to stereotype women around kind of leadership archetypes, but I think bringing perhaps a more feminine sensibility to how we lead I think that is quite differentiating and it's quite powerful as well. I think, and that's been part of why I think Aurora's done pretty well and we've grown quite quickly in that we're not kind of selling to people. We're not, you know, if we can't do something, we'll tell a client we can't do something. We'll, equally gently, kind of prod a client if we think they're maybe kind of making the wrong decision, but we'll do it in a very kind of thoughtful, empathetic way. So, yeah, I think that would be the only bit of my mild chagrin, I would say, at the moment.

David: 49:03

You've had an extraordinary career. You're doing amazing things now. You know. The way you talk about it with passion is exciting. How would you encourage people to come into the industry? Why should they do it? Why should they be part of the creative industries?

Dawn: 49:17

Oh, I mean, I spend my life telling everybody that they need to work in the creative industries I speak to young accountants and I'm like well, what are you doing as an accountant?

Dawn: 49:29

What are you doing that for? And, of course, everyone's roles are important and all the rest of it, but I kind of feel that the creative industries have always been incredible and I think you know, like anything. There's so much change and transformation happening and obviously there's a lot of debate around AI and is that a good thing, is it a bad thing? Is it very high profile, is it scary? And all the rest of it. I think, if you've got some degree of creative inclination, if you've got some degree of wanting to make a difference, why wouldn't you want to come into this industry and and and kind of and create? Why why wouldn't one want to create and build and imagine, kind of create new experiences, do things that haven't been done before? It was interesting. You'll know this stat, david.

Dawn: 50:16

I'm sure we were chatting to a really I think it was actually we were introduced through National Museums, liverpool chatting to a really lovely company called Dot Art, who are, you know, liverpool artists, and I hadn't realised the extent of this. Um, they were telling me the 40%. There's been a 40% reduction since 2010 in people doing art at GCSE. It's just absolutely heartbreaking, isn't it? Because, of course, it's our creativity creativity and our humanity, against the backdrop of AI, that is going to be the thing that is going to save us and is going to be the thing that is going to create all the new jobs that don't yet exist. So, um, so, yes, I, um, I couldn't ever imagine, you know, a career outside of the creative industries.

David: 51:04

Really, it's just the the place to be it is, and you can be a awesome financial accountant in a creative company. We have them and we have tax people and lawyers and procurement this is very true and this is why, before the applause is is here to partly showcase of how many different layers there are to create in the spark exactly glittering game at the end, or the theater show, um, because we need people to be part of this industry, and you get more than just money from this sector.

David: 51:36

You get a good sense of fulfillment and you know that direction, like you say. So the last question that I've got for you so we ask all of our guests to make a cultural confession, um, and that confession could be anything you want. Don't blame me if you get yourself into trouble, but do you have a confession you'd like to share with our listeners?

Dawn: 51:59

I do. This is quite a fun confession. Obviously Nothing too. Obviously I could go really dark, but I think that would be a probably late night kind of three in the morning piece, so I'm going to keep it in the sensible-ish category. I'm feeling very Catholic, right now as well, I'm kind of loving it.

Dawn: 52:17

So my cultural confession is that I'm a massive film and TV buff, obviously, so pride myself on my encyclopedic knowledge of, you know, every form of kind of film and tv. So from the great, so from Kubrick, through to um Hitchcock, through to Denny Villeneuve, through to um Christopher Nolan, you know I'm all over it. Um, love my kind of art house films, I love my quite populist films. But my real guilty pleasure and it drives my husband mad is like really cheesy 1980s films why?

David: 53:01

why? What? What'd you get out of it? What? Why, why? Why do you love it?

Dawn: 53:05

they just I think it may be. It's a nostalgia trip of. It takes me back to being kind of a teenager. So I'm massively obsessed with anything with Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner. So Romance in the Stone Juleman Isle, and then like all the kind of Brat Pack stuff, so St Elmo's Fire, like Demi Moore, like what is that? Even about Pretty in Pink Loving that. And then my ultimate confession of my truest guilty pleasure film and I'm going to describe it when I describe it before I say what it is. It is just the most bonkers thing. So this film was made in 1980. It mashes up. Try and guess it. Actually, before I finish reading off what the elements of it are, oh, okay.

Dawn: 53:59

Greek mythology. 1980s Roller skating ELO Olivia Newton-John.

David: 54:10

Greece, xanadu.

Dawn: 54:23

I was like, oh my God, where's the rollerblades coming to this. So I am absolutely obsessed with the film Xanadu. It's like possibly the worst film ever made was gene kelly's last film and what an awful film to be his last movie. I mean, you just couldn't make it up, um, but I loved elvie newton john's voice and that was in a whole kind of athleisure where kind of physical vibe. So yeah, that is my.

Dawn: 54:48

I'm feeling a bit sad yeah want to have, just like a pizza and a bottle of wine. Stick on Xanadu and the world is good again.

David: 54:56

Brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing that and thank you so much for being a guest. It's been brilliant and I hope we'll do it again sometime.

Dawn: 55:05

Oh, thank you. It's been my absolute joy to have a natter with you today.

David: 55:14

Thanks for listening to this episode of before the applause. Please do tell everyone about this podcast and stay connected with us across all the usual social media platforms by searching at before applause. If you've got any burning questions, want to share your own insights, want to recommend a guest or be one yourself, then we'd love to hear from you. You can direct message us on any of our social accounts or email studio at beforetheapplaudspodcom. Thank you.