Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to this new episode of Before the Applause with me your host, david Watson. In this episode, I talk to Martin Green, cbe, one of the most recognisable figures in the arts and cultural sector. He shares insights from his extensive career in the creative industries, discussing the challenges of public perception, the pressures of large scale events and the importance of empowering team members to create monumental and impactful audience experiences. He reflects on his journey from a school play to leading major events like the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic ceremonies, through to Eurovision in Liverpool in 2023 and, of course, everything in between, the Eurovision Song Contest. The iconic global music competition, is just around the corner and, as the competition's new shiny director, we discuss how it's the ultimate format for the digital age, its continued impact and success and, ultimately, how it's the perfect catalyst and opportunity to unite us all by music. Grab a cup of something nice and join us as we discover more. Before the applause Martin Green, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:10

David Watson hello.

Speaker 1: 1:12

Nice to see you. You, too, talk about hard to pin down. You can talk. I know I've been trying to get you on this podcast for ages, but you are the one in demand. You are very busy, so I really appreciate you doing this.

Speaker 2: 1:26

It's my total, my total pleasure. I'm sorry it took so long, but we got there in the end we got there in the end.

Speaker 1: 1:30

Uh, where are you now? Are you back in the uk?

Speaker 2: 1:33

uh, yes, I'm in london. Uh, now I work mostly from london and a bit over at the headquarters of the ebu in geneva and obviously we're spending a lot of time in basel at the moment, which is our next venue for the show. So, yeah, it's a bit all over the place at the moment, but it's really good fun.

Speaker 1: 1:49

It's how you like it Exciting here, there and everywhere.

Speaker 2: 1:53

I know right, Keeps me out of trouble. Keeps me out of trouble.

Speaker 1: 1:56

So this podcast explores the awesome creative industries that we work in, so in the widest possible sense, and what it really takes to create some of the extraordinary and artistic shows that we all love, whether we're laughing, we're crying, we're rejoicing how amazing they are. Um, so that could be a book, a tv program, an exhibition, but obviously for you that's events, spectacular events, jaw-dropping moment one tries bonkers stuff, bonkers stuff.

Speaker 1: 2:29

Um, I know many people are going to be fascinated by this conversation because you do.

Speaker 1: 2:33

You do media appearances, but you don't actually get to talk about what you've achieved. So I'm quite excited to dive into this, um, and we'll get into all the detail. But the first thing that I wanted to ask you about is something you probably won't expect, but I wanted to ask you about opinion and perception, because, with what you do, that is quite featured in a lot of things, and what I mean by that is you know, you take on huge projects we all do and often there's a lot of perception through an opinion thrown at us and it's often negative and it's quite palpable about oh, that's too big, it's never going to work, and all those kind of things. Um, and I've never really had the chance to ask you properly about what's that like stepping into and does it even bother you? Do you like? Oh, whatever, I'll make it happen anyway, um, because often it's louder than the people that are supporting us doing these things yeah, well, it's a fascinating question because I you know that there are levels.

Speaker 2: 3:30

There are answers on many different levels, I think you. So let's try and separate a few one. The the immediate one, is you know what you're getting into, right, we do work on a big scale, often using public money, and we invite a lot of people to get involved in both the creation and enjoyment of that work. So one shouldn't be surprised that people have opinions about what you're doing and that's sort of what it's for, right, and that's. You know, that's sort of what it's for. You know you work with artists who are putting an opinion out there or putting a thesis out there, or, you know, asking for engagement in a conversation Right Now.

Speaker 2: 4:19

I think there's another level that you've probably heard me say before. You know, know, oh, to be the commentator and not the creator, right, um, it is, it is, by its very nature, art. You know, hard work for the artists and the producers and everybody creating it, um, and and slightly easier to have an opinion on it, um, and and sometimes, I guess. I guess the hard edge of it is when you know that opinion is, is agendered, right, when it's not really an honest opinion of the work it's, it's it's a comment that has another agenda in mind.

Speaker 2: 4:53

But I, you know, if you get frustrated by, if you get wound up by you're, you're sort of in the wrong game. Um, because you've got yourself into a game which is about an invitation to react. Um, I think experience and time helps that a lot. Um, just because you get you, you literally just get used to it, um, but, but you know, but not always, and they're, you know, there are absolutely instances when you know people react to piece of work or have an agenda within a reaction which is hurtful. But again, what time has done is that I get very defensive of the team. It's not, it's not myself. I mean, I'm incredibly protective of the groups and the artists and the producers and the staff and the communities that we bring together through the work and I get, I get, I get and will get and allow myself to get frustrated on their behalf.

Speaker 1: 5:50

Absolutely, and I remember joining Hull City of Culture with you in 2016. And I think, well, I was in the digital team, and I say the digital team, it was just me to start with.

Speaker 2: 6:00

It was at the time, wasn't it?

Speaker 1: 6:02

when we started, it was at the time, wasn't it when we started, we used to get absolutely hammered with negativity. I don't. Obviously everyone thought wheelie bins were our issue, but it is something you kind of build resilience to and understand. I understand where it actually comes from is ultimately, they want it to work of course it is.

Speaker 2: 6:23

It is absolutely. It's actually being invested and actually Hull is quite a good example of that, because I totally have the opinion that the onus is on us to bring people round to view the exercise as a positive one. It's our job. You know that's what we are there for and I think you know in Micro we are there for and I think you know in microcosm. You look how that event started.

Speaker 2: 6:49

We did a week's worth of projection that started off with big fireworks. The fireworks had to be free ticketed because we could only have 25 000 people there and there was a big hoo-ha about that when they inevitably sold out because actually what the audiences weren't so used to was a week-long projection work. But as soon as the audience started coming and realizing that it was great work by great creators, many of them from Hull, involving communities, you saw that initial reaction die down. That initial reaction died down and then, because that piece of work was on for a week, you know, the culturally engaged came on night one. The ones who weren't available on night one came on night two. The friends they told came on night three.

Speaker 2: 7:33

And by the end of the week, those people who'd sat with their arms folded and go. I'm having nothing to do with that or I don't agree with it. They came not because of your brilliant digital campaigns, not because of the marketing campaign, but because their friends had said do you know you should go down? It's really good, it's a great atmosphere, it's telling our story really beautifully and there are things they recognize and I you know. I think that's always a good example of how you know you put the work out there and you wait, but ultimately it's about what people say to each other, about yeah, yeah, the old school word of mouth right, it's still number one marketing tool.

Speaker 1: 8:09

Yeah, can't beat it. So we've spoken about some of the things you've done. The major spectacles what's the pressure like when a city or a town or a whole country and in some cases, the world, is watching what you're doing? Um, I wondered what that is really like, because some of us have been part of it, but we're not at the head or the helm of some of that stuff, because I know you do protect the team A lot of the stuff you keep away from us and you have done. I just wondered what that's like for you. And then maybe advice for those that are potentially currently in that situation or about to leap into that.

Speaker 2: 8:45

I think the thing to remember is that it's not the performance. The end part, where you do go live to invariably an enormous amount of people, is not a single one-off event. It is the end of a process, right? So so it is. There's a cumulative act which saves you from being terrified. Okay, there is a day, weeks, months, days, years in in some cases, where you sit on an office, in an office on your own, and think, and that's, that's, that's the moment of terror, actually, because it's you. Is anyone going to come and work for us? Can we get it? Can we get it right, can we? And to think, and that's the moment of terror, actually, because it's you know, is anyone going to come and work for us? Can we get it? Can we get it right? Can we raise the money?

Speaker 2: 9:30

But then you're off on a journey and suddenly people do come and start working with you, so you are no longer alone, and that's an important moment. Then you know, hopefully you can raise the money to do something you feel can be quality, and of course this is nothing to do with scale or size, this is about quality. Whatever budgets, whatever you're working on, you start to work on that work and if you've got good producers and good artists, there's a constant conversation about is it good enough, can it be better? Is it engaging, are we working with people in the right way? And then and then up to you know you're up to first night, but by the time you get to first night you wholly believe in that piece of work. Right, and you should be and are confident that you have done everything possible to ask and invite people to engage in that piece of work and when they do, they will find something that they love and like.

Speaker 2: 10:35

A lot of the fear at that first night, I think, comes if you feel, for any reason, that that hasn't happened. And you know we've all got examples where, for one reason or another, you don't quite think it's there and you don't quite think it's good enough, but you know largely it is. So, yes, on that opening night you've still got. But I think if you've got it right, that's a mixture of fun and laughter and nerves and hysteria. You know, because you're releasing this thing out there and you're saying right now, do what you want with it, because we love this and I hope you do too, and it's a genuine act.

Speaker 2: 11:11

So I think I you get. You do get asked this question because you know obviously the stuff I do goes live in front of hundreds of billions of people. But the important thing is it's, it's not a singular journey, it's it's, it's a cumulative act. You know where you gain your confidence with that piece of work, so you are not frightened of it and therefore you are not nervous and yeah, when you've done a few, you kind of you get, you get into the swing of it, don't you?

Speaker 2: 11:37

well, you do. But also you know, this is thing about experience. Experience you don't know what you know until you know it right and and you can go right. I remember this last time. But also that's when you start to move into a different position and you say you, you spend a lot of your time protecting the people and supporting them and encourage them who maybe this is the biggest piece of work they've done, or they're new or whatever. I always say you, probably again you've heard me say my, my job on the night is to protect everybody from all the crap and anything that's slowing them down or anything that's not allowing them to do their job. Because you know my job job of bringing producers, artists, audiences together by then is obviously done. My act there is to protect the team and deal with anything that is going to get in their way.

Speaker 1: 12:27

Your career has been pretty epic and you're well known as one of the cultural leaders which I know you like. But, being real, it's taken a lot of hard work, which I think most of us know but not everybody knows. And, yes, you've got a CBE and and a BAFTA, and a BAFTA and a BAFTA. I think we'll get into that. But one of the things that I kind of wanted to explore is about how it all came about actually. So where did it begin, did you? I think you went to Leeds Uni, right?

Speaker 2: 13:01

yeah, but I mean, in a way it was way before that. I mean, I was, you know, I basis here is I'm one of those lucky people in life who gets to do what they love for a living right, and that there were so many people who don't have that opportunity and and it's not about money or privilege or anything, it's you know, if you can do something you love, um, and that can be in any sphere, then then life becomes very different. I mean, I think you know my my bit goes right back to I was going to study, I was finishing school as a, as a teenager, and I was going to study hotel management, and it was the end of the school year and the summer was just about to start and they were doing the school play and I didn't really have anything to do. I'd done all my exams and I wandered in the school hall. I saw this extraordinary set up for a production of Miss Summer Night's Dream, which you know. This is what you know 20, no, hang on 30, 40 years ago now. And 30 years ago our brilliant drama teacher, felicity John, had put the stage at the other end of the hall so that the audience was sitting on the stage and the stage made up the other end. This was revolutionary to me, like oh my God. And she said what are you doing? I said I'm not doing anything. She said go and help him on the lighting deck. And then that was it. I was gone right, it was magic, magic, sound lights, there's audiences, you know just total action.

Speaker 2: 14:27

And that completely changed because that was at the end of my GCSE. So then I dumped one of my science A levels and took a theatre A level, went and studied theatre at university, much to the horror of my parents. Then a master's degree and blah, blah, blah. And then that then led me into events, and it was never about performing. I'm not a performer, it's not a natural space for me. Even now I look back on it, it I know that what I was loving was producing. I didn't know what it, that's what it was, but that's what I was loving bringing people together and the excuse, and the money and and organizing that, and, and so it goes back, you know, right there. So it which you know. Then I didn't end up in theatre, I ended up in the events industry and what was your first proper job?

Speaker 1: 15:14

can you remember?

Speaker 2: 15:16

my first proper job was as events manager for the fashion cafe in Leicester Square. Now, for those those under the age of 110 listening to this, there used to be a theme restaurant in Leicester square which was backed by a load of models, um, and it was a restaurant which was you know the irony beat, you know, obviously backed by by a load of people who don't eat sort of things, but, um, and they had a. The whole idea was that there was a catwalk in the middle of the restaurant and, you know, eight times a day there would be a fashion show. And I started there there as a waiter because I was at university, I needed some money and just near Christmas their events manager quit and they were absolutely at the spell and I don't know where I found the confidence from.

Speaker 2: 16:05

I walked into the office and said, well, look, I think I could do that if you're in trouble, because I've studied theatre, I've done a lot of theatre. I think events really are just something happens and there isn't an audience and you need light and sound, and they were so desperate they said yes, and me and the events who? They then spent a year making the most awful mistakes because we didn't know what we were doing, we thought we did, and you know god bless them. You know I learned a lot through doing a lot of bad stuff and I think that's you know that through that I did an event with an events company who then asked me to go work for them and they were based in Covent Garden. But it was quite a few years of working with small events companies doing, you know, little launches and things like that.

Speaker 1: 16:50

So you're a bit of a hustler then.

Speaker 2: 16:52

Right, just getting in there well, the piece of advice I always give to people, because I'm, you know, in that stage there where, where you feel that you can give a bit of advice, is just be good at what you do, don't have one eye on the next job. Don't, you know, be terrified about networking. If you do the thing that you have been asked to do really well, someone will notice that and go they're really good. Get them to do that as well. And certainly for me as an employer, I think I absolutely notice that, and you will too.

Speaker 2: 17:30

You've employed big teams. Now too, you see that you've spot them a mile off. They're really good, and it doesn't matter what level they're working at. You know they're really good. So, yes, I mean, I can tell you. You know, it's one or two times where I have absolutely put myself forward and said I would really like that job, once on the olympics and once on euro. But mostly I just thought, you know, if I do this really well, someone will notice and they will ask me to do something else, and that is what has happened.

Speaker 1: 17:59

And the sector's small enough for us to see that you know, so it does get noticed.

Speaker 2: 18:04

Well, yeah, actually yeah, because it's intercompany as well, because you know, this is what it's all about. You'll say, oh, I'm really looking for someone in X, do you know anyone? And those people are only going to remember the people who think they are really good. And actually this isn't a hard thing. This is the great thing about it. Whatever level you are, wherever you're going, just be good at what you do is not a hard thing to do, and leave the noticing to everybody else.

Speaker 1: 18:34

You say it's not hard things to do.

Speaker 2: 18:35

Sometimes it's quite challenging for some people. Well, you can't imagine. Yes, this is sort of hard and fast rule, but I think in general you know that's what happens because either if it happened in the space, or people will talk or someone else you know you will get. You'll just get. You know it's great. The reputation you want is they're really good at what they do. Usually, if someone says that to you, that's all you need to hear they're really good at what they do and that's really important something to hold on to, because people can get very distracted onto the next thing and worried, and I I did it too early in my career.

Speaker 2: 19:03

Where am I going? What am I going to do? What's going to happen to me? I was absolutely terrified at the start of my career. What on earth was going to happen? And then, gradually, I managed to relax into it because I realized that all I really needed to do was and then I'm not kidding make that cup of tea well and write this piece of paper well and, you know, make sure that was done over there, right?

Speaker 1: 19:25

yeah, it's, it's absolutely on that level to begin with and I've had the pleasure of working with you, if people can't tell already many, many, many times still here. True pleasure, um, and I was reflecting on London 2012 because that was the first time I properly met you. I remember being in three meals in my interview and I saw this really tall guy whizzing up and down the corridors, really energetic and smiley, and I was like wow. But part of that journey that really stuck out to me was probably from the first couple of weeks and it was something you've already touched on.

Speaker 1: 19:59

It's about noticing me and there was a few occasions where I would challenge people and say they can't do certain things and they were way above me and they were big wigs and quite well known. But you were the first person to like no, he knows what he's doing. And you backed me. Equally, when I came up with some mad ideas, you and one of them in particular, was this ceremonies explorer thing we built, which is a live companion for the olympic ceremonies both of them and it runs in real time. Everyone thought I was bonkers, but you were like no, do it. And people were raising an eyebrow because we were trying to do something different. I remember a few opinions were like you're trying to reveal the magic of how to create the show. But you were like, no, he's not going to do that. He knows how to create shows. But I think that's something that's very consistent with you is that when you employ somebody or you collaborate with them, you really, really back them and that gives such a great confidence.

Speaker 2: 20:58

I hope so. I mean, it's really yeah, it's nice of you to say that. I hope so. Right, and I hope I've got better at it as well. You know, all the cliches are true. This is a team sport, right? This is a team thing. You can't, I can't do what you do. I mean, that's, that's that's actually quite important. I can't do what you do. I need you in order to help me achieve this right. And and one thing I learned when you, when you get into new jobs and you've got you suddenly are in leadership positions and things is hopefully taking the time to notice who's coming in, because, on any level, you're only directly employing a few people and then they're employing the rest or at least that's how it should work in my view and you're constantly on the lookout and you enjoy being surprised.

Speaker 2: 21:47

The Olympics was an interesting one, because so much of it is regulated and so much of it is protocol and so much of it happens for Sam. What we were all really interested in is what we could do differently or, you know, put another way, how do we hand this back slightly better than we found it right? And so, yeah, I'm sure we all we had barking things that didn't make the cut. But also I learned from other people. So you know me working with Danny Boyle there. I learned never to say no, right. He would walk into my office with this. You know, I walked into my office one day and said I'm going to throw the queen out of a helicopter and every bone in your body wants to go. Never right. But you learn with someone like that that at the very least you're going to go. Okay, let's sit down and talk about it and either that process actually that karma process figures out what you can and can't do, and even if it's a no, the great thing is you've got other team members going. Well, look, hold on to the core of that idea. Let's discuss it with tech or digital or whatever and see if the core of the idea can still be achieved in another way. Or or, if we just have to look at each other and say that one's going in the bin, let's go on to another one. So you, I've learned it from other people about how to.

Speaker 2: 23:08

Uh, you know sam hunt, the great sam hunt, who we worked with, who walked in our office very late in the day in hull and said there's an artist who wants to take a wind turbine blade and put it in the middle of the square. It's 75 meters long, it doesn't turn corners, and he wants it to be a surprise. And we have to rip the road up. And then because by that point we basically assigned all our money and we got no money, said Fran, and Fran, who was actually director, who was brilliant, she will not let you spend money you don't have.

Speaker 2: 23:41

But all of us went oh my God, right, that, right, how do we do that? And everyone came together and we found the money. And we found the money and we found the engineers. And you know it was, uh, that's a great example of um, sometimes you just have to go. That is, that's so good. And I and I'm also a believer that in many ways the money does follow the idea and the the actuality does follow the idea if people are just galvanized by just a fantastic idea that was that.

Speaker 1: 24:11

That was, and it's still, one of my favorite things we've ever, ever done, and someone I was in a whole couple of weeks ago and someone was talking to me about it oh, it is one of one of the favorite things I've ever done, yeah and so that kind of connects me into risk and I feel I don't want to put words in my how are you with risk?

Speaker 2: 24:28

what I found is your relationship with risk changes through experience and your description of risk, your knowledge of risk changes, because I think in the beginning, a lot of risk is simply about fear and that's not about risk. And within risk is risk assessment and risk management, by which I mean what is the actual risk, that this is going to happen, or risk that this is not going to happen, or blah, blah, blah. So again, you learn, first of all, that your own fear can artificially inflate risk, but also the fear of people around you, their risk averseness can inflate risk and also, even on a more subtle level, their agendas can inflate risk. So you're able, over time, to take something that appears to have risk, remove the voices around it or at least filter them. So you are taking the ones that seem real to you and pushing away the others that just seem fear-based or risk-averse and coming up to a better understanding of what the risk is.

Speaker 2: 25:48

Now. Added to that, I think, if you are fortunate enough, as we were and lots of other people were to work on as something as big as an Olympics, it fundamentally changes your relationship with risk, because you get this wonderful recklessness, because you, you there is very little you can't do on something like that, because you've got everyone behind you, you've got the money, you've got the space, you've got the imagination right. So if you're pulling chimneys out the floor or, you know, floating how many was it 51, mary Poppins across the sky, or setting fire to rings and that is the gift of doing that is it gives you this informed recklessness where, if someone later on walks into your office and says I want to put a 75 metre blade in the middle of a square where it's not supposed to go, in a way what you're saying is well, I've done worse, honey.

Speaker 1: 26:49

It's normally what I say. It's literally normally what I say I've done worse honey. It's normally what I say. It's literally normally what I say.

Speaker 2: 26:53

We've done worse, but also better. You just you go okay, oh, my God right, yes, because there's nothing about that that gives you risk or fear to begin with, because you just think it's a great idea. So I think it's about your relationship with this, and I'm constantly talking to people, actually a lot in the communication sphere around. What we do is what is the risk that this is actually going to happen? Let's think about it and then let's make a judgment on it, because actually that conversation a lot is removing the fear from something and a lot of fear is completely unfounded. So I find actually, actually, as I get further into my career, I I worry about that moment where you get to an age where each starts making you risk a burst, that I do worry about that, or or, you know, I don't think that, I don't think that'll be you I worry a bit about that, but so far it hasn't happened, so that's good no, I don't think that's going to happen.

Speaker 1: 27:52

And you just mentioned london 2012. Can you believe it was like 13, 14 years? Well, for you it was a bit longer than that, because you were involved before, wasn't you who?

Speaker 2: 28:02

I joined in 2007, so I was five years before we did the show. So, yes, yes, my. So what's that? 16 years? Yeah, I mean, it's amazing, isn't it? It's amazing and I love that it's still in people's heads, you know, I love that.

Speaker 1: 28:20

It was very special, but you've got a pretty impressive roll call of jobs. You've done head of events for the Mayor of London, director of events for the O2, millennium Dome, as people might remember it, then Head of Ceremonies for London 2012,. Of course, ceo for Hull 2017, chief Creative Officer for Birmingham Commonwealth Games and Unboxed. You did a stint for Tate. You then took this dream moment to do like Eurovision with BBC in between that and then you've gone and become the director the thing for Eurovision Song Contest and I'm not doing you justice because I know in order between that. You are on board and you support idea development and you've been a consultant. I wondered if you could have a meeting tomorrow with, maybe, the 17 year old Martin. Have a little sit down, a little cup of coffee. What would you say to him? Oh, my god, you'll choke me up.

Speaker 2: 29:13

I mean, classically, you say to him everything you are going to show me up, that's like you'd say, everything's going to be okay. That's what you say. Because that, because the 17 year old was not only wondering what life had in front of them and what, what he would do, but he was also coming to terms with being gay and that that that stage when you're young, these two things are very linked, because you're sadly still a bit true now, but it was true then that there was was a, there was a sense that that could actually limit the choices of what you did for work. Right, so it really is. It is everything's going to be okay. Just be good at what you're doing, and someone will notice.

Speaker 2: 30:03

Um, I have, I was born at the right time in the right place. To it always struck me as weird. I don't believe in all this crap, but obviously I was the right age to be able to get the job of Head of Ceremonies at the London Games and the London Games not having happened since X and won't happen again. And there's something amazing about the timing of all of it. You know, even up to eurovision in liverpool, you know we never won eurovision. We hadn't stayed. We hadn't stayed eurovision for 25 years and obviously, sadly, we're only staying because there was a war on somewhere else.

Speaker 2: 30:40

And I'm often kind of struck by these, this alignment of stars, some of them not very nice, but, um, that that leaves you in the right place of your career at the right time to be able to do things. Now I don't think it's just that, because I think there's a lot of engineering here and yeah, frankly, that eurovision show could have come up at any point and I think I would have dropped everything to do it. But yeah, it's, um, you know, it's an amazing thing and then it is, you know, having, just in november I started as director of eurovision and that's, it's just a whole, another crazy chapter and mix of pop music and geopolitics it's amazing.

Speaker 1: 31:22

Is there anything you think that might surprise people about your route to being a cultural leader?

Speaker 2: 31:28

yeah, first of all, I don't lead is for other people, you know, but I, I um well again I'd say I grew up in essex and went to a comprehensive school in essex, so there were no silver spoons, great, yes, and supportive family, and we, yes, we didn't have to worry, as too many kids do, about whether the heating was going to be switched on or if they were going to eat pretty standard stuff, and I and I I'm quite proud of that and I and I like to make sure that people know that there was no privilege here and my daddy didn't know someone. I mean that I think you, it can happen, you, it can happen if you just get yourself out there a bit. All it takes is just one little moment to set you on the path, and I think it is possible, for it is more possible than a lot of people think first.

Speaker 1: 32:21

But that's unfortunate, because what they're also dealing with is being young and unconfident and you know, I try and lecture at the event universities and things like that, and I, you know this I just most of it is about building confidence absolutely um and a lot of um, leaders, whether you like being called out or not, have like, by the time you get into those positions, you kind of more, most like, have a philosophy or a mission, and I kind of think you've already touched on this with basically, be good at the thing you're good at. I just wondered if there's anything else that you, as part of your toolbox, you have yeah, there is actually the the.

Speaker 2: 32:53

The other thing is a happy show, and by show I mean, you know that can mean team events. You know, blah, blah. I, in the first part of my career when I worked with some nasty people, frankly, and in some unpleasant places and relatively late in my career, I was still dealing with some nasty people, frankly, and in some unpleasant places, and relatively late in my career I was still dealing with some relatively unpleasant people who had the power, dynamic to be able to affect me and I always used to sort of see it as that. You know, french and Saunders, gone with the wind thing. You know I swear I will never play another game.

Speaker 2: 33:28

I, you know, I said I am going to run, I'm going to try and run happy shows. Sometimes everything is against you and that's really difficult, but it's become increasingly more important to me. You know, as a leader, you do set the energy in the room, you do set the weather, but running, if someone comes out of an event or a project we've done and said I, I just had a really great time. Or you know, I remember all the apps arriving in liverpool for, for eurovision, and, and and sort of saying this is the happiest eurovision we've ever like been part of and I was very proud of that, because it does take time and it does take effort and uh, yeah, that's, that's become really important to me and something that sticks with me and I don't try and repeat it very often which, um, I can't remember where I heard you say it.

Speaker 1: 34:14

You probably said it quite a lot and I think it was in a huddle, and we're probably arguing over what, how we're going to deliver something not necessarily us, but other people, and usually it was something on the lines of and I've written down is basically show the money on camera or on stage or in the experience, not elsewhere. I feel like I know what you mean by that and I use it all the time, and I just wondered could you articulate what that might mean?

Speaker 2: 34:40

Yeah, well, it's, it's, it's. It's become more complex now. I think the phrase we used to say was every penny on camera, right, because that's when you were doing a broadcast thing, but it's a metaphor as well. You know, it's about production values. Um, I believe that the biggest engagement tool for audiences and communities is production values, because if they come to something and they can't see or hear or it looks shit, why on earth should they engage with it? And again, this is nothing to do with scale, but often it's about overreaching and trying to do something bigger than your resources allow, where something smaller and more beautiful and refined would have a bigger impact, and more beautiful and refined would have a bigger impact. So I do think a lot about this. Now, what does every penny on camera mean? It doesn't mean that those velvet drapes are really expensive. It means that you've simply spent your money in the right place, because if you are making a piece of work alongside a community, then what you invest in making that idea.

Speaker 2: 35:52

Do you remember Katie Fuller's amazing Land of Green Ginger project in Hull right, where she worked with a bunch of artists in every borough in Hull and she brought communities and artists together. The communities shared the myths and legends and then the artists helped them make those shows. But they just didn't make. Help them make the shows, they it was, if you remember, it was the largest bit of money we spent on anything in hull, on our big community engagement program, and they made the work beautifully. And to see those communities who you know?

Speaker 2: 36:27

One borough, they had this myth of a horse-drawn carriage coming down the, the, the, the, back to back, the 10 foot yeah, the guineas are called 10 foot in health, and so you know we were able to resource the most amazing horses and out of the mist, in the dark of it, came and the grandpas were telling the kids about the myth of oh, it was just magical and that was all about production values, but that every penny on camera, a lot of that money was invested into the groundwork of working with communities to find and help them tell their stories and make their stories. But obviously, without that, when it came to the performance, it wouldn't have had that integrity. So you get my point right. Um, really important, if you're engaging any audience, let alone, uh, community audiences, or rather, you know new audiences. I think if it's, if it looks great, they will react to it. They will absolutely react to it on a level before even they get involved in the idea of it I wondered what has been the most difficult job for you.

Speaker 2: 37:29

Well, I think that is reasonably easy actually, because Unboxed was a very, very difficult project to do and I think about it a lot. There was £120 million of public money that, no matter what was going to be spent on creativity by the then conservative government and I just felt very passionately that I could gather a group of people to make sure that it was spent in the right way. And you know, yes, I think you do great work and you do other work, but I stand by it in the sense that you know, particularly because that was all done before COVID and we ended up going through COVID and I know we kept multiple companies alive through COVID by that project and I think there are obviously some ideas from it that are still going and award winning and things like that. But unfortunately, the government had lost the narrative on it from the outset because it sort of got this label of the Brexit festival and there was. We knew right from day one there was nothing we were ever going to be able to do to get rid of that label, but we were still going to make work and we were still going to make sure that all that money went to creatives and artists and companies in the UK to do something off scale and unusual.

Speaker 2: 38:45

But that was tough because you were you. You know we were all being beaten up every day about that, metaphorically, but I I don't regret doing it, but I think it's a good lesson in when things are difficult, why they are difficult, and if you lose control of the narrative, you you rarely can get it back. But you know you. You you learn from everything, right, everything. Everything can't be rainbows all the time. And if I've got this far and and had you know you, you you learn from everything, right, everything. Everything can't be rainbows all the time.

Speaker 1: 39:09

And if I've got this far and and had you know one very, very difficult project, um then then you know we've done all right in terms of I know you've done loads of great stuff and you can't pick your current job, but it's already and you can't talk about blade and there any standout moments for you that still really sit right in the core of you, that you think about all the time and that were a great expect for whatever reason I think there's probably many uh and it and it.

Speaker 2: 39:37

It almost depends on the day you know of, of what you're doing that day, partly because you're reaching back into your experience to kind of say what have I done, something that's in the vicinity of this that I learned something from, and how can I bring it into this? The other day I was thinking about the time I was working for the mayor's office and go way back Ken Livingston's team paved over Trafalgar Square to turn it into a proper square because it used to be a kids, it used to be a roundabout and be a roundabout, and that gave us an area that we could really do events on and bring certain things back into the city. And I remember doing it. Oh, that was it. Because there was because the scissor sisters the touring again, aren't they? And we put the scissor sisters on in trafalgar square and we were. You know, we hadn't really done big concerts in trafalgar and they don't do them now. And then Kylie Minogue walked on and introduced them and the real deal nearly died. It was absolutely amazing.

Speaker 2: 40:34

But I was thinking again about cities and how cities use themselves and engage with audiences, and both on a community level but also on a big sort of international promotion level. I was thinking about a lot of the stuff we did at the GLA there, from New Year's Eve fireworks to St Patrick's Day and Day, pride and Versace and Diwali, and what just a learning curve that was, and how amazing it was to see that all those communities had a space right in the centre of London to celebrate themselves. You know, space in the right in the centre of London to to celebrate themselves, you know, so it's. It is honestly different things on on different days. Now I'm very lucky because I've been, I've worked with some amazing people, have made amazing work. I was talking about the closing ceremony of the Birmingham Commonwealth Games, which actually is is a show I love. I love, love that show.

Speaker 1: 41:27

I even remember that the handover was brilliant as well.

Speaker 2: 41:31

Oh, my God. Well, actually for the wrong reasons, because we're all watching adolescence at the moment, which is, I mean, just if I could ever achieve anything on that level. It is, and I know everyone's saying this, but it's one of the best things I have ever seen. But obviously because it's one of the best things I have ever seen, but obviously because it's done in one shot, we are reminded of when we did the handover from Birmingham, which Martin thought would be really fun to do in one 11-minute shot. And, by the way, adolescents, we did ours live, we did ourselves ours live in front of a billion people, 11 minute, one shot. Find it on the internet. It's very funny, it's like loads of kids in it, it's great and um, and I knew, I thought you know what went into that, and the steady cam operator in the relationship. You end up with the steady cam operator and then thinking, blimey, they did that for an hour and they did what is it? Six of them? I'm only on four and you feel, my god, the, the, that, the technicality and the genius of adolescence is. You forget the technicality because the writing and the acting is so bloody good, you're just in there.

Speaker 2: 42:41

So, yeah, obviously I'm around a lot of music at the moment because we've got the show coming up and I, I really do. I I loved opening ceremony with Conor McCombs, obviously, but the closing I just thought was put together so beautifully musically, I asked them to do something breathless. That was my main. I always try and say ultimately to the team one word right. And I said I'd really like it to be breathless and just start and go and end, and they did. And all those artists, and then obviously Ozzy Osbourne popping up at the end going Birmingham forever. You know you can't buy that kind of stuff, right, it was amazing. So, yeah, it's different things on different days, but mainly because you're thinking about what had I learned from that?

Speaker 1: 43:26

Yeah, and it's not exaggerated. If you ever work with Martin, he will come up to you and go darlings, I want it Mystical. And we're all sitting there processing it for a week.

Speaker 2: 43:38

The darlings bit, david Watson, I think I probably do fancy it. You know what I do, because I come in from a weekend or from the night and go. I had an idea Phil Bat in from a weekend or from the night and go. I had an idea, phil batty, the the amazing phil batty used to say the chilling phrase was when you used to walk in the office to go. I had an idea last night and everyone go, oh god or martin's up at 5.

Speaker 1: 43:58

Am writing it down I'm an early bird.

Speaker 2: 44:02

Yeah, sam used to get really the bbc used to have this. He said tell it to me in nine words. And actually it's a really good exercise if you can reduce it ultimately to one word and get every get that word in everyone's head, because everyone will have a different interpretation of that. Yeah, but they're all driving at the same thing. It is. It is quite a useful thing and sometimes it takes a while to come, other times when we've just known what it is right from the beginning. But there's also, famously on that opening week of Hull it was completely the wrong thing until very late where a number of the team had to sit me down and say you are wrong, right.

Speaker 1: 44:45

Wrong.

Speaker 2: 44:45

Martin wrong and I'd never forgotten that moment. And they were because I, I was stuck in it and my ego had kicked in and blah, blah, and they, they you know it was like intervention. So you, this is wrong and you have got this wrong and we are running out of time to put it right.

Speaker 1: 45:04

And and they were absolutely right and he didn't fire any of us um but it's what it's all about, isn't? It? No, absolutely, and you're willing to take it as well, which is something that people need to learn as leaders, and not let your ego get in the way yeah, if you reckon everyone has a written ego, if.

Speaker 2: 45:20

But the question is is recognizing it? I said to someone only the other day I was talking about someone to them and I said the problem with him is he's like me, he wants it all his own way, and they they just laughed their heads off because I my characterization of the person was completely correct. But they hadn't worked with me for very long and they were slightly shocked that I had just admitted something that they had decided about me as well. But I think if you have this self-awareness to know what you're like, it's not about changing who you are. That's very difficult. It's about realising what you are and, in a way, celebrating that with other people by way of making it disarming.

Speaker 2: 46:08

You know what he's like. You know what I'm like, right, yeah? So therefore, you know you do a thing and it does become a joke and it can be hard work and sometimes you do have to make the tough decisions and sometimes you do have to say, no, there's three really good ideas in this room, but we're going to go with this one and that's it and everyone pulled together. So, but hopefully, if you get it right, you can have a bit of a laugh about it as well.

Speaker 1: 46:37

Absolutely. So you've done everything right. Well, you could have basically gone and taken a nice bit easier job go and run a building but then Eurovision comes a knocking.

Speaker 2: 46:49

It's not easy, this go and run a building, but then Eurovision comes a knocking. It's not easy. This day it's running a building. Yeah, I mean, listen, I think it all happened at the right time. I, you know, and everyone knew that I'd always wanted to do Eurovision and I got the opportunity in Liverpool and that was a dream it was. The team were just amazing and the stars aligned liverpool, the production team, bbc studios, everybody that it just aligned and it was just a fabulous, fabulous thing, and even more so because we were doing it for ukraine.

Speaker 2: 47:20

And then I, you know little, did I know that a year or so later they'd come and say do you want to do, do you want to run it permanently? And I'd say I, I think any other. Again, it's about points in your career. Any other point in my career I don't. I don't think I would have done it, but at this point it really felt like an interesting thing to do, mainly because it turns out, you know, part of my job is to protect the jewel in the crown and the, the show in may and everything around that.

Speaker 2: 47:44

But most of my job is about saying so, what do we do the 51 other weeks a year we have this extraordinary brand 175 million people watch the show, 550 million individual internet accounts, votes from 163 countries and 35% of our audience is under 24. Unbelievable. So what can we do with this thing that we've got which, as it says, is united by music, in a time when we could do with a bit of uniting, and probably by music, and that that that is turning out to be a really fun, exciting journey and and I'm really, you know, next year is the 70th show for the, for the european show, and, um, some, uh, some, really exciting. You know, next year is the 70th show for the European show and some really exciting stuff comes through next week, next week. Oh, two things away there Beep In the next few months, beep In the next few months. That I hope will just continue to just grow this beautiful, beautiful thing right and we're having fun again.

Speaker 1: 48:49

Great team, great team at the ubu on this it's extraordinary, and I was, and I was thinking about 70 years and how has it lasted that long? And actually it's a real good example of it leaning into change and moving with the times and technology and audiences, and that's something which you know lots of art forms struggle with and I think 70 years is not. It's nothing to be sniffed at, it's pretty cool yeah, they said there's a few things.

Speaker 2: 49:18

I mean first of all and you'll know it's better than I did little did they know 70 years ago that they were creating the perfect event for the digital age. Let's have an event where there are 37 new pieces of content every 12 months and those pieces of content are chosen because there's more content up to that point, and you know it is. It is the perfect digital age project and yet is also a format that that maintains one of the few spots in in linear tv, because you all sit down the second saturday may at eight o'clock and watch it. There really aren't many of these things around. Yeah, our tv figures are absolutely holding strong, if not lifting up a bit. Our digital figures are just exploding, because it's just a gift.

Speaker 2: 50:09

I think it's never tried to be anything but itself. It's about pop music and it's about pop music from different countries and it celebrates that. Underneath it, I think, sits the world's greatest new music festival, because you imagine pitching this to the BBC now? Right, it's all new music. Most of it's not sung in English. It's four and a half hours long, and I want Saturday night primetime.

Speaker 1: 50:41

You would be laughed out of the building right, but that sounds like something you and I would come up with and try and make.

Speaker 2: 50:47

Right, exactly, I don't understand why you're not getting this. This is the best idea ever. So it is, and I think should continue to be, about the art of. You know, the art of writing a perfect pop song is one of the hardest arts on earth, and it should be about the song and the voice and the performance, and yet not try and be anything else than what it is. And the great thing about pop is that it changes things for you. You don't have to force change on it.

Speaker 2: 51:15

What the team have done is made sure that the production has moved with the times and actually often with Eurovision, it's moved ahead of the times. We were the first show to be using all the LED. We were the first show to use wireless microphones. We were the first show to be using all that LED. We were the first show to use wireless microphones. We were the first show to have that big voting stuff, and so, because of the scale of it, you can do things slightly ahead of time, and there's a lot of the industry that watches what we're doing every year and goes, oh God, I haven't seen that before. So there's a lot to love about it, there's a lot to protect on it and you have to work hard and you can't just let it be and hope for the best. But it's a fascinating thing to do and I'm really looking forward to seeing how we can do more with the idea of countries coming together through music, basically very bloody exciting, and it's a matter of months away, so can't wait six weeks, six weeks.

Speaker 2: 52:03

David Planning Order came out yesterday, so that means we also put the first big video out of all 37 songs. So go on to eurovisiontv and pick your favorite. But yes, we are six weeks away from gathering in basel in switzerland, which is very exciting so we're near the end of the conversation.

Speaker 1: 52:21

We have two last things to cover. Are there any myths or pet peeves that you want to address right now that no one's ever let you talk about?

Speaker 2: 52:28

don't let art become a social service. Social service is for social service, art is for art, and I think we should be careful not to blur the two. I know money's tight, but great art is in itself a service to society. It doesn't need to be made into a social service. I won't say more than that, but everyone knows what I'm talking about nice, nice and uh, condensed.

Speaker 1: 52:53

And then the last one is um, and I know you've probably got many confessions to make, but we ask every guest when we close to make a cultural confession. Nothing to get you in trouble, martin, but anything you would like to confess to, is it a guilty pleasure, something that someone doesn't know about you, something you're desperate to do? Oh my God.

Speaker 2: 53:10

Well, I did say so last night. I was sitting next to someone from Cirque du Soleil last night at this dinner and I had to in the end say to them I really don't like Cirque du Soleil. Wow, it's just not my thing. Not everything's for everyone, it's just not my thing. Not everything's for everyone.

Speaker 1: 53:29

It's just not my thing. There you go.

Speaker 2: 53:31

That was very nice of you to tell them. It wasn't as blunt as that, it was within the context of a conversation. And I have seen a lot of Cirque du Soleil shows and the artistry is amazing and the acrobats it's just. You know, when it comes to people's relationship with art, it's just not my thing.

Speaker 1: 53:49

Just not your thing. Martin green, thank you so much for doing this. It's been a pleasure. Um, we'll all be watching your revision, no doubt. Um, I know you'll knock it out the park, um, and thank you again. It's been brilliant. All right, thanks, david, it's lovely to see you. Thanks for listening to this episode of before the applause. Please do tell everyone about this podcast and stay connected with us across all the usual social media platforms by searching at before applause. If you've got any burning questions, want to share your own insights, want to recommend a guest or be one yourself, then we'd love to hear from you. You can direct message us on any of our social accounts or email studio at beforetheapplaudspodcom.