Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to this new episode of Before the Applause with me your host, david Watson. In this episode, I talk to Laura Harvey, a powerhouse leader in Britain's dance sector who strives to break down barriers and create high quality opportunities for young people in this thriving art form. We explore her journey in the dance industry, discussing a revolution from a dancer to creative leader at English National Ballet, an advocate and campaigner for parents in performing arts, as well as changing focus over the years to strive for fulfilment over happiness. Our discussion takes a deep dive into the challenges faced in the industry and the importance of empathy and leadership, the evolving landscape of the arts and the importance of resilience, community and collaboration. Looking ahead, we explore the promising future of young talent in dance, the evolution of dance companies and practitioners and, despite the challenges, why there is cause for optimism and celebration in one of Britain's most successful sectors and exports dance. Grab a cup of something nice and join us as we discover more. Before the applause Laura Harvey, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:09

Thank you, David Watson.

Speaker 1: 1:11

I know you're always busy. You're in the peak of the season, there's everything going on projects. You're involved in everything, so I really appreciate you finding the time to do this with your bestie.

Speaker 2: 1:22

Always.

Speaker 1: 1:25

Oh, thank you. You. I'm very excited, so we'll talk about it in loads of detail at some point. But we came across each other many moons ago when we both worked for Rombear Dance Company, as it was called then. Um, we're pretty inseparable ever since how long? How long ago was that?

Speaker 2: 1:43

I think I started at Rombe like 2005, and then you came in, maybe like a year after that yeah, god, it's been so long maybe 20 years, babe lots of these conversations I'm having people that I know or work with and no longer is it.

Speaker 1: 2:02

I've known you for 12 months, it's. They're like, oh, it's 15 years, 20, oh and no, and we've just spoken about before. We started recording your beautiful children, who have been part of their lives, and holding them as a baby, and I'm like, oh, my god, oh my god, I think I'm, I'm in the bracket of old now, aren't I?

Speaker 2: 2:19

no, no, we're not. I'm like come on, but yes, it is a little scary when you have children and you can measure by how long you've known someone, like we were just saying. My eldest is 10 and that feels crazy and I do remember you coming around to my flat and he was just a teeny, tiny baby and then suddenly he's 10. So, yes, it's time, isn't? It Just moves on.

Speaker 1: 2:40

And you know good theme of the conversation stuff moves on, evolves and change and how we adapt to it and very much connected to your career journey and how I know you. So you're currently head of creative programme at English National Ballet.

Speaker 2: 2:55

I am.

Speaker 1: 2:55

But you're a freelance dance artist and creative practitioner, teacher, and if anybody knows Laura, she's a pint-sized feisty powerhouse. That's what she's known for you do not mess with Laura Harvey but an extraordinary practitioner, a creative visionary. You've done some incredible projects. You're a trustee of Parents in Performing Arts as well, all-round creative genius and someone that I admire because of the way that you navigate your career. You always make great choices, you know, but you're really passionate about other people and about finding talent and collaborating and doing things in new ways, and we also have a connection from where we're from. So our accents are very similar. I think we've got a bit of a similar grit and we like to disrupt things. So Laura often works with companies, which can be quite traditional, and then goes in there and shakes it up, which I really love, and I think that's what you're known for. So we'll get into the detail of all the projects and stuff like that, but I want to give you the opportunity to describe in your own words what you do as a whole.

Speaker 2: 4:05

Well, that was a really nice intro. Thank you. You are definitely promoted to my director of. Thank you very much. Wow, what do what do I do? Um, it's really funny because I wrote a linkedin post about this the other week because it popped up that I'd been at english national ballet. It said 10 years. Actually, I've been there for 15 years in various guises and I talked on that LinkedIn post just actually about the variety of roles and it's hard.

Speaker 2: 4:34

The title of what I wrote was what is in a title I'm head of creative programs but it doesn't really encompass the breadth of work that I deliver. And I guess you know like I started out. I started out in education, primarily in dance education, and I'm really on the kind of management, administrative side of it. But I trained as a dancer, so my itch was always kind of that artistry and that creativity. I guess I wanted to really merge those things together, which is why I did a degree in dance and arts management, I think, because for me it felt like a very natural fit.

Speaker 2: 5:11

But my career has taken me in lots of different directions and I've built lots of different skills through teaching, through choreographing, through artistic direction, through strategic management, through designing new programs through working with the biggest breadth of people. Like I was trying to really quantify how many people I've probably worked with, you know, within this time. I mean I couldn't even put a number on it Thousands and thousands of people. But I think what it's done is given me this kind of 360 degree look at the industry from lots of different sides. I did the freelance in the 10 years out on the road with companies like Rombert. I taught for English National Ballet as well. I did a lot of work in schools and what you do is you pick up lots of skills and I realise my biggest skill is probably being adaptable and being able to kind of just really be agile and turn my head and problem solve. Someone at English National Ballet many years ago once called me the shit sorter out you do, you do, just get over there.

Speaker 1: 6:22

No crap, it is what it is very gentle and collaborative, but you just sort this shit out. It's great.

Speaker 2: 6:29

I just sometimes I just think like I'm a doer, I like to go in and get on with it and get the job done. I guess probably when I started my career I was I probably did that a bit more like a bull in a china shop, whereas I would hope now I spend a little more time thinking. But I think my energy is definitely always about forging forward and moving forward and getting things done. And you know, I've got two young boys at home, like they only emphasize that in me as well. Yeah, so I think it's just like my career's just taking me in lots of different directions, giving me lots of different skills.

Speaker 2: 7:06

Also, the people you know that we work with in the dance industry they're so inspirational. We have to put our head and mind to lots of different things because lots of organizations I've worked in they're not on a massive scale. I've worked in some of those grassroots organizations where you're the marketeer, the fundraiser, the education person, the manager, like you're doing everything. But I think that skill base is something that enables you to be really adaptable to lots of different scenarios and that's what I enjoy. I enjoy all of those different things about the work that I deliver.

Speaker 1: 7:44

I enjoy all of those different things about the work that I deliver and I think it's a really poignant moment to talk about having all those skills as a practitioner, a teacher, a dancer, a choreographer and the world has evolved. And even if you don't specialize in some of those other areas, you know when I work with you it means we could have the conversation about what it takes to market something with knowledge and your own ideas integrated into that. And for those that want to get into the industry, this idea of a portfolio career which I would describe maybe incorrectly you might disagree with me is what you have. You have the constant, but you also do all of this other stuff around it which shapes you and very much means that you're in the moment and moving forward.

Speaker 1: 8:25

And it can feel very stuck if you just do one area all the time and maybe back in the day you know I'm sure my mum would have a very strong opinion about. Well, you have a career for life kind of thing. You don't move around and it she doesn't get how I move around jobs so many times and all this stuff. But making you a rounded individual and a professional is something actually the creative industries needs from you and it will get the best out of you, and it sounds like you've really put a lot of energy into that 360 development for yourself, which is quite a difficult thing to do, would you say it's been difficult to be that adaptive do you know what I was thinking about this last night?

Speaker 2: 9:03

because actually, when someone says to you you're going to be interviewed, you of course start thinking about why, why you're here, why you're doing this journey, and lots of things started to make sense to me from way back when. So, like I was really fortunate because actually, growing up I, you know, went to a local dance school. I only started dancing at nine, which for some people might be relatively late, but it meant that I made the decision. I really wanted to go. The school that I went to offered GCSE dance, which feels like a miracle now. And this was like back in the nineties. We had a dance teacher from year seven, all the way through dedicated to delivering dance. You know, I went on and did a BTEC in performing arts and, and all of the choreographers that I've come to meet and be work with in later life a part of those people that I studied Christopher Bruce, richard Alston, siobhan Davis, we did a lot of physical theatre, dva, like just all of these amazing people.

Speaker 2: 9:57

And I think you know, at 18 I made the choice that I was going to leave Birmingham. I wanted to do a degree. I think at the time I wasn't really clear about, like the vocational option versus the degree option. But I think the dance and arts management felt really connected, partly because at 15, I'd gone and done a work placement at Birmingham Royal Ballet and actually just thinking about that last night I was like, wow, it makes so much sense why I've ended up where I have. Because I went into that education department which was run by Jane Hackett at the time wonderful Jane who you know is in the industry still forging forward today and I was on their dance track scheme. So we'd go out to these schools in Birmingham city centre like they're in really deprived, you know parts of the city, and Birmingham Royal Ballet would look for these young dancers to train, a bit like Chance to Dance Now and other schemes like that. I was 15 at the time and I think what I realised quite quickly was the power that dance had to change somebody's life and I saw that from a place of privilege, like I knew I'd come from a place of privilege and we'd get in these taxis and we'd take these massive tutus out and go into these schools just full of kids. And they're doing our ballet class with wonderful Julie Felix who became an examiner for me. Um, actually she was somebody that I really looked up to. She used to come in and do all my local exams and assess me and there I was sat with her in a class running around, you know, helping put numbers on the kids and like I don't know. Like I look back to that experience now and I think God, that was like what 25, 26 years ago, like that was my first interaction with it and actually in terms of my then choice to go to university and do dance and arts management, I think it really brought it together.

Speaker 2: 11:52

And then when I finished uni, I wanted to perform like I'd got the dancer in me and I felt like gosh, I, you know, I'm going to look for a postgrad performance company. I never got anywhere with it and what I realized quite quickly was that competition was really high. I should have gone to vocational school, probably if I wanted to go down the pure dance route, but I didn't accept that. I wasn't getting into these institutions to do the postgrad. I just thought what should I do?

Speaker 2: 12:18

And I was like I know I'm going to do an MA because actually I want to get to London and if I stay in education, my parents will continue to fund me. So I applied for the MA in European Dance Theatre Practice at Larbham and I got in, which got me to London, and I have to say I learned more in that year than I'd learned in my whole degree Because the next person up from me I was 21, fresh face really knew very little about the world I'd arrived in London. The next person from me was 30. So they'd had like pretty much 10 years of work experience and I think something like 16 of us started at the beginning of that year and seven of us graduated.

Speaker 1: 13:00

Wow.

Speaker 2: 13:00

I learned so much. I spent so much time in the library I crammed. I learned so much, I spent so much time in the library, I crammed. I literally had to like my brain, had to become open to like philosophy and history and really delve into dance practice in a completely different way. But what it taught me was that I could be adaptable, I could move through these different scenarios and that has that's really served me with the decisions I've made and this ability to not take no for an answer.

Speaker 1: 13:31

See I think that. I think that's a a middling thing.

Speaker 2: 13:36

I think that's just us maybe you're right, I mean I. I just I don't know. It's become really apparent that if somebody says no to me, then I'm like, right, how do I get around that? So they say yes? Or like, how do I need to put it to them so that they can get what they need from it? But I can also get what I've asked for as well. But I like that, I like challenge.

Speaker 2: 13:59

I you know it's not all come easy to me, no, and I've had to work really hard. But I think this is an industry where people do have to work hard for it as well. And I guess now where I'm at is that sense of wanting to enable people around me, want to open these possibilities and opportunities more for people. And when I think back to those interactions with Birmingham Royal Ballet when I was 15 and what I observed there, like that thread has literally like carried on through my whole career, which is the opportunity to open dance to all, for it to be inclusive, for it not to have this elitist elitism around it, and I spend my daily life trying to smash through those barriers in all senses. And it's a vocation right, like yeah, like we don't do it for the money, let's face it absolutely not for the money.

Speaker 2: 14:53

Um, it's a dedication like we.

Speaker 2: 14:55

We have a saying at work which I feel, like I kind of probably coined, really, but we do what we do for the people we serve, because, in an engagement context, what we see is the recipients of the work that we deliver really getting something out of it, and that always drives me forward. What do they need? How can this be a better experience for them? What are we not doing, right? Like? I spend a lot of time questioning that, because I want people to really understand and be swallowed into this amazing art form, which I think has so much power, particularly in a world that is, let's face it, so confusing, right confusing, stressful, tick, ick, inducing all, all of that and it's an escapism and you know, I suppose more of your artistic colleagues will express it as a way of telling stories through the body, discovering yourself.

Speaker 1: 15:47

It's a beautiful art form and you know we're talking about dance now, but that's what, what makes the creative industries really special and there is a place for you in the spectrum of what creative industries and that's the point of this podcast is a showing that there's more than one facet to it and lots of different roles, and there's something to find that happy place, um, and there's not.

Speaker 1: 16:08

You know, we need happiness and ultimately, isn't it that what we all desire and want, that happiness and dance, dance is just a beautiful way to do that. I wondered if you could just talk about your experience at Chester Uni. Um, chester Uni's was really renowned for its dance course. Um, which is quite unusual because a lot of people wouldn't go to uni to do dance, but Chester was named constantly as one of the best courses to do and, interestingly, my little sister went to Chester Uni and did the same course. Um, but I just wondered what you talk about the choice to go there. What was it like? Because obviously we moved away. It'd be good to talk about what you didn't get out of it, that you think you would have liked to get out of it.

Speaker 2: 16:53

Um, and any tips for people deciding how to pick what they do yeah, I think, like I look back and I feel like I was actually quite focused. I'm quite a focused person. I feel like if there's something I want, I will go and find that and get that, even if it means sort of moving in lots of different directions to achieve that. I think there was a natural affinity for me with the dance and arts management, and at the time this was 2000, there were two places in the country that offered dance and arts management. One was de montfort university in leicester and one was chester. It was when I went. It was chester college, which was part of the university of liverpool. It's since got its own, uh, university status, which I thought was bonkers like.

Speaker 2: 17:35

Even then, at 18, I was like this is ridiculous. They are churning out dancers with no skills other than how to dance, which obviously you know. You know not to diminish. That's an amazing skill in itself, but actually how many people make it in inverted commas you know, at that level where they can have a full career as a dancer?

Speaker 2: 17:57

And I've worked in a lot of big companies, what you would refer to as those you know, big scale companies, where I've seen dancers be kicked out at 45 and then have no idea to, as those you know, big scale companies where I've seen dancers be kicked out at 45 and then have no idea, like you know what they're doing, and and I don't mean kicked out by the organizations, I mean because they've decided they want to leave their career and you know as a dancer and they don't necessarily have the skills to understand what's next. So it felt crazy to me that there was only two places in the country, because actually you need to know how to run an organization, you know, even if it's small scale. You need to know how to do the books. You need to know how to market yourself, you need to know how to write a fundraising application and, let's face it, those arts council applications have not got any easier over time competitiveness, for trusts and foundations.

Speaker 2: 18:45

Like you know it, we're in a competitive market now, but I also I also remember just thinking like, actually I want a skill base that enables me to shift and and move and not be one thing or be defined by one thing either. So because I was living in Birmingham, de Montfort Uni didn't feel far enough away. I was like I can't live in 40 minutes from my house and then my parents going to like pay for halls and everything for me and Chester just felt like the Hammond School were there, which is obviously a really great ballet school close to Manchester, close to Liverpool. It just and when I arrived there, I just thought this feels like a bit of me. And the lecturers there were amazing. There was a lot of lovely crossover with like the drama department as well. So, and one of the one of the teachers there actually he was an ex-peanut bouch artist like the people that were there had had professional experience in the industry and I remember just feeling like I'm gonna. I feel like I'm gonna thrive here, I feel like I'm gonna love it and I'm gonna grow up a little bit here as well, like 18 man like that feels like a baby now, like I just swanned off like my suitcase by mom, by dad, and I never went back.

Speaker 2: 20:00

I never went back to Birmingham after that. I mean, obviously that's a visit, but I never went back home. I left at 18 and that was it. Like I was out in the world, and I think what Chester gave me was again like let's look wider, what else is out there? We did a lot around European dance theatre practice there, because my lecturer, mark, was very much into that scene. He loved the work of Martha Graham. He was a very contemporary artist. He's contemporary drag artists as well. So, um, you know, I I felt like my eyes were opened quite a bit.

Speaker 2: 20:33

I think what I didn't get there was probably more progression in like some of the classical forms, like ballet, for example. So again, I was like I'm not getting it here, so I'll go to Hammond instead. So I used to go to Hammond instead. So I used to go to Hammond a couple of nights a week and do the adult ballet classes and I mean it was lovely. There were mostly ladies there that were probably over the age of 65, and then there was me, like fresh-faced 18 year old, but I but again I felt like it was me that was responsible for whatever it was that I wasn't getting from that course and we had this amazing lecturer called Linda Ludwin who was in the arts management team, and she she was an American lady and she was fierce, like you'd go in with an essay and she'd be like it's too long, there's too many words, why are you doing it like that? And I remember the first time feeling like, oh my gosh, like she hates everything I'm doing. But she taught me so much. Actually, she taught me to be critical of my work. She taught me to really look at is this what I want to say? Is this the message? Is this important? She made me do my research, you know, and actually when I look back on that time I think again it was another moment that really shaped, probably why I am where I am today and having those you know, performance opportunities, being able to program different artists.

Speaker 2: 21:52

I was saying this morning to somebody I remember we, one of the arts management programs we had to do was program an evening of work. So I programmed an evening of dance and I had Nigel Charnock come in from DVA and I just I just called his agent. Hey, my name's Laura, I'm from, uh, chester University. We're doing an evening of dance. You know just thinking, oh my god, I'm calling to speak to Nigel Charnock and he came in and he was the most wonderful, warm human. You know he passed away young, too young, but actually what he did with DVA, how he moved that physical theatre, art form dance for camera on, like having him in the space, was incredible. I was thinking about some of the way like I program work now and that those early influences are really there for me.

Speaker 1: 22:40

So I you know sorry long answer, but I got a lot out of my time at university and.

Speaker 2: 22:45

I don't regret a minute of it, I think. Would I have wanted to go to vocational school? Maybe, but actually would I feel as fulfilled as I do now? Potentially not. And coming back to what you said before, you asked me that question about happiness and that quest for happiness I, my thing, is really about a quest for fulfillment. I think happiness comes part of that. I think if we search to be happy, then we're probably going to fail, um, but actually if we feel fulfilled, then happiness comes as part of that and I, and and that's what a lot of the work gives me is that sense of fulfillment that's really nice way of rounding it out.

Speaker 1: 23:23

And, yeah, you're right, fulfillment is what we're looking for, which drives the happiness. There's a couple of things you said in there, so if anyone's listened to any other episodes which I hope you are laura mentioned about feeling, about chester, and this is something that a lot of my guests are talking about. When you're going to pick your place in the world, where you're going to go and grow and study and make mistakes and craft who you are and Laura's just said it again that feeling you probably will know. Your gut and your body will tell you if it's the right space. So, yes, you might audition for 12 dance schools or look around the uni campus and that feeling is something that is consistent and trust it. It's not about the name necessarily. It's about what you might get out of it and the feeling and if it feels like it's the right path, which is really beautiful.

Speaker 1: 24:10

And the second thing is you've just mentioned that you didn't get x, so you went up to the Hammond school. I think that's what is the biggest thing that all artists can do is be curious. I suppose it depends how you look at. It could be all over the place or it's actually pretty diverse and I like to think the latter and that's because I was curious. I was at Northern and I was like I don't just want to dance, but I want to know how I invoice, I want to know how to write a CV and a business plan and why is this school run like this and why? Why have they got a curriculum and the companies that I aspire to be in, how are they run and what is a rehearsal direct? Because you're not going to get all of that from a single course, to be fair.

Speaker 1: 24:48

So I think, being curious and in at that point I know we're going out and enjoying life and you know, for me and Laura in particular, we moved away, so we're like exploring somewhere different.

Speaker 1: 24:57

But you have to kind of invest in other part to help you find who you are and what your place will be in the sector and you can be everything you want to be and unfortunately I was kind of like a trend of type of dancer or you're going to be this kind of choreographer. I never really subscribed to that. Um, hopefully we don't get that anymore. And you know, and weirdly, like you said, you work along some of some of the people that taught you. I know some of the principals of the schools now and they're trying to diversify what their schools and courses offer because they recognize in this world, particularly now, you have to think about your own personal brand. We've got we've got to be a bit more business savvy and you know, the critical thing is, I think, which you said, is do your research, understand it, live it, breathe it. It will fulfill you.

Speaker 2: 25:44

You will get more fulfillment by having this knowledge I also think like dance is is funny because you see it all the time right in media like dancer makes it. Like you know, dancer makes it to this school or this person from this school makes it into this company. This sense of making it, I don't know, it's just the next step. It's not necessarily going to bring you that fulfillment, right. Yeah, like what I've seen dancers there's some dancers I know who made it again in inverted commas to the companies they wanted to be at and then a few years later decided actually I'm gonna go and be an accountant yeah, we know loads of them, don't we?

Speaker 2: 26:24

I mean some really brilliant professions that are completely different, because sometimes the thing you think you're chasing is not actually the thing that brings you that fulfillment. And in dance even now I see it in young people there's this kind of blinker of like this is my route, this is my path, but but actually then when they arrive there, whether they get an audition, you know whether they're successful or not. I think what I find with a lot of people is they find their success and happiness has come in different ways, not from the thing that they thought would be that moment of making it. And I and I'm a really big believer in we have to set our young people up to be resilient, and I think we're in a really difficult world at the moment, not just in the arts, but in the wider global sense as well, people's resilience is low. We came out of COVID like we'd just come off the back of a holiday and it was like business as normal and it wasn't like. And the impact of that, you know, mentally for people, as well as all the financial impact you know, has meant that people have suffered for a really long time and resilience is low, and you know this sector is a challenging place to be at the moment.

Speaker 2: 27:43

So, actually, what about if we can train these people at these institutions to trust their instinct, to know that if they get what they feel is the pinnacle, it's not necessarily going to bring them the fulfillment they want? And actually, looking a bit wider might bring them something that they hadn't expected, and I think that's what I found as my career has evolved is that I found joy from scenarios that I went into, not really thinking, oh, like, this is going to be something I'm going to love, and actually what it gave me was like what I call these wow, magic moments, and these magic moments are things that you just want to bottle it and how when you need it, and it's just it's a feeling. It's a feeling and it's something I think the human ability has, particularly in the arts, to connect to this moment, to be present. I always worry and that's one of my big worries is that we're still in an industry that works in quite a traditional manner, you know, with that linear training up into it and then up into a company.

Speaker 2: 28:46

But, actually there's a big fall off there because there are not that many company jobs available, you know.

Speaker 1: 28:52

And the places are getting fewer and fewer. You know and I was having this conversation with a colleague yesterday in particular about how there needs to be a little bit more of a look at pathways, companies that get idolized, like you know, wayne mcgregor, I think he only ever took in like one or two new dancers a year. And you know, even northern I was thinking my year there was 35 people or something that graduated from there and you put that across the country. You know ndc wales. They were doing two, three a year, the royal ballet. Yes, they have an ensemble, but even if you look at the scale of it, it's not that big EMB, it's not that frequent they audition and it's so small and also they're not just auditioning dancers from in the UK, it's global, so you've got absolutely thousands of people going for these places.

Speaker 2: 29:41

I mean, I remember when we were at Rombert and at that time it was the only contemporary dance company in the UK to employ dancers full-time, on a full-time basis, 12 months a year. Yeah, the only contemporary company to do that proper salary, proper benefits like. Are we in any a better position now?

Speaker 1: 29:59

no, we're in a worse position because they're changing contracts, it's freelance, there's not enough money around. But I think that's why it's really important to have this conversation, like you say, about looking beyond that linear path and be, I suppose, being open to it. And that's what people ask me for advice. I always say be open to it, be open to that change and that surprise and that thing, that beautiful thing. You said that magic moment in which you want a bottle because it is. It can be quite transformative. And it was for me, realising I could do all the stuff which I get that sparkle from, and I didn't realise I'd get so excited about producing events and shows. And it's weirdly a different but very similar experience to performing and taking a bow and it's hard to describe what, what's, what it feels like, but it is very similar but I remember Simon Cooper, lovely Simon Cooper, ex-rombert dancer.

Speaker 2: 30:53

He got the first Jane Attenborough Dancing Education Fellowship Award. So when he finished dancing at Rombert, one of the things he did was I was working as an animateur at the time, which meant that I would go out, I would teach alongside the company when they were touring. I would learn all the repertoire.

Speaker 2: 31:08

And Simon and I ended up you know, working together quite a lot. And we were asked to deliver a talk to the third year students at Ron Best School and one of my first questions was what are your options if you don't become a dancer or if you don't successfully audition? And honestly, I think I broke a million hearts in that one question because what was apparent at that time was that no one had really thought about what the alternative was. And then someone put their hand up and said archivist. I could have, I could have jumped up and hugged that person because I thought one that's brilliant, but also that's slightly left field, like most people say choreographer, archivist. But that also really brought home to me this thing of like again, how are institutions building that resilience in people, in young dancers, and also giving them options, giving them the wider context of the dance world? Just because you don't become a dancer doesn't mean you're not going to find success in other areas still in the industry.

Speaker 2: 32:11

And when I? You know I am immensely privileged to work at English National Ballet. You know it is. It's a really interesting organization to work at and there has been such an evolution in the 15 years that I've been there. But like it's only as successful as the sum of all the parts that bring it together, like, actually, you know, our company dancers. They are incredible, they're supporting an amazing artistic team, by the marketeers who market their work, by the choreographers that come in, by the development team that are fundraising to make it happen, by the work we do in engagement, in bridging that gap of on stage and more kind of grassroots community work. Those things they're an ecology that exists all together.

Speaker 2: 32:56

And now, you know, one of the programs we run is ballet club, which is for local dancers of newman tower hamlets. They're 9 to 12 years old and as part of the week we program for them to meet our people in marketing, to meet our people in costume, to meet our technical staff, to have a chat with our dancers, to have choreographers coming in so that actually from that really young age they're already seeing the possibilities which, again, you know, it's not just those vocational institutions. We know that the schools are having a really challenging time at the moment. Arts is coming out of the curriculum. You know, as an industry we're fighting for that because actually, you know, how is our industry going to grow and flourish and continue if there aren't those first interactions with dance from a really early age or with arts, you know whatever that looks like, those creative subjects and I feel like I have spent my life talking about why creative subjects are important, why they are relevant, why actually they are imperative to people and to their lives, and through the programs I deliver, I've seen them change lives.

Speaker 2: 34:03

I've seen people come into a dance with Parkinson's class, for example, having a really challenging day, and go out like a completely different person. That's like an hour's class. So I just think we have to keep promoting that. There is so much to do in the industry but, you know, in creative arts as a whole as well.

Speaker 1: 34:23

And this is the point of this podcast people, she's my marketeer, this and I've just as you were talking, I'm like, oh my god, there's a project in that I need to map every single vocational cause where the gaps I need to calm down. I've got other things going on. Um, you've just spoken about some of the projects you deliver. Yeah, and there are many. There are many, and I have had the pleasure of being part of some of them and been out on the streets in the freezing cold. I just wondered is there anything you've worked on over the last couple of years really stands out to you as a really important, fulfilling for you standout project, which I know is hard because you've done so much fabulous stuff, of course, Well I would say, yeah, I mean, there's so much I feel.

Speaker 2: 35:07

This is when I reflect and I feel so lucky to have had the opportunities I've had and to work with the people I have. So one of the things you mentioned at the start of this is that I'm on the board of trustees of parents in performing arts, which is a brilliant campaigning organization to make working conditions and policies better, because there is a huge talent hemorrhage, particularly for working mothers when they go off and have a child and then come back into the industry. One of the things that really kind of drove me towards that was working with Lucy McGrudden on Dance Mama, and Lucy herself has been campaigning for, you know, for parents, but specifically for mothers, because physically, you know, in terms of carrying the baby and as dancers, just so much they're wrapped up in identity, but also then you know your body and then coming back into work as well. We've been working. She's been really slogging her guts out for the last 10 years banging on the doors of people, you know, and I feel like the tides are starting to turn for her a little bit now, which is amazing because it's really important not only the physicality but also kind of mental health around mothers as well.

Speaker 2: 36:19

I do kind of the public participation strand of it, but actually I end up with quite a lot of creatives who come as part of it. So you know, at the moment, on a Monday, I work with this amazing group of women. They bring their babes with them. Some of them are six weeks old, some of them are six months old. They lie on a mat and look up at me and I try very hard to concentrate on teaching them. I'm just in an R-ring over these super cute babes.

Speaker 2: 36:46

But what I realized one of the mothers said to me it's so nice to come to something where I am using my brain, where I'm being pushed and challenged, but in an environment that feels really supportive. And she's somebody who works in the creative arts. She works in the music sector. I have another lady who's a West End performer. So you know there are people that have been in the industry as well. They understand what it is.

Speaker 2: 37:08

But actually her saying that really brings home to me my absolute, innate belief that you can take people beyond what they think they are capable of whole career, trying to push that boundary for individuals and it's I hope it's always in a kind of nurturing manner. But again, it's that magic moment where people at the beginning of a process go I don't think I can do this. And for those mothers coming back in in a really vulnerable time when you've had a little one and you don't know who you are and you're just trying to sleep but you can't sleep and you know it's really challenging to come and do something where they can connect with other people and feel valued and seen and challenged and they can remember that they are people with a brain that you know want to push further is something that I love to be able to facilitate and be part of. So I think the Dance Mama work is really special to me and tied into the work that I do with Pippa and being a working mother myself and knowing what chaos that brings into your life.

Speaker 2: 38:17

I just want to really nurture that strand. I mean, kids are a leveler, right Like this morning, like my youngest Arthur. He was like oh, what are you doing today? I was like, oh, I'm gonna be talking to David on this podcast. So I got dressed and I put on sort of little like play suit thing, came downstairs and he looked at me and he said why are you wearing your pajamas, mommy? And I was just like, thanks, doesn't matter. Like who you are or what you're doing, kids are a leveler, they'll bring you back down to earth very quickly.

Speaker 2: 38:48

They'll bring you back down. So yeah, anyway, that was a side note, but I think Dance Mum has been super special. And then one of the programs that I look after at English National Ballet is called Replay. Well, it's a performance platform that we do yearly and it's really about showcasing a lot of the performance groups that we have as part of our engagement strand at EMB. It's just a really beautiful platform where I commission, alongside members of the engagement team, artists to come and work with our groups. We will often commission composers to be part of it as well. We we have filmmakers and we tied this year it was everything that was tied into kind of EMB 75th, so it was really repertoire based. But actually, you know, when the whole program came together, our youngest dancer on stage was nine, our oldest dancer was 83. And we had a couple of our company dancers perform. We had EMB school perform. It was just a really beautiful moment of people coming together to share the passion of what they do and at the end of that we do like a chat with the creatives.

Speaker 2: 39:54

So I'm on the other side where I normally host that, and I love that because you can just get under the skin of people a bit more like. I don't just want to see what people have to say with their body, I want to hear them speak and articulate what it is that keeps them dancing. And you know, one of our dance for Parkinson's dancers said I thought I was going into retirement but dance seems to have become my vocation, like you know, even though I'm living with Parkinson's, it's the thing that I love doing and that I want to do more of. And then you've got like your you know, know, really young dancer who's nine, who's just starting out in the kind of dance world. So that for me is really fulfilling. And doing it at EMB with all the professional values and that high artistic quality. Because actually what I always want to do is break through the barrier of people thinking that engagement and the work in education should be seen as lower than the art form itself that's presented on the main stage. I disagree with that entirely.

Speaker 1: 40:55

And if you've ever been in a rehearsal with Laura, I can assure you it is going to be the same quality as on the main stage with the company dancers.

Speaker 2: 41:04

Do you know what, though? I think it's taking people to where their maximum is and obviously that's at different levels, right, but it doesn't mean people.

Speaker 2: 41:12

If you want people to aspire to be something, to do something, to reach further, you've got to set the bar right and and I take that really seriously I do that, that with myself. How do I better myself today, how do I move forward today? Because again, it comes back to this fulfillment thing right, and you know, at the end of that, the curtain comes in of replay. All the dancers on stage, they're all screaming and shouting and jumping and oh my God, it's just gorgeous. You're just like this is, this is what it is. This is what it is you, you have to experience it.

Speaker 1: 41:47

It's experiential it's pretty extraordinary and and the thing that you keep talking about is around this collaboration, and you've worked with so many creative people. I just wondered what do you look for in collaborators and what tips would you give to people that are interested in collaborating? You know, maybe it is a sound designer or a choreographer or a marketer. What would you say they should look for in finding the best collaborators?

Speaker 2: 42:12

I mean the best collaborators like I feel. I feel like we're so rich, you know, in the arts world there are so many amazing people I've worked with. There are so many amazing people I would still want to work with. I think, when you go into collaboration, you have to go in with a kind of open view. I think you have to, though, also know what it is you want from that collaboration as well and how you want that to grow and steer. I think you have to really listen, because sometimes you might go in with an intention and then somebody else who's part of that collaboration comes up with something entirely different which betters what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 42:55

Actually, I used to run a program called dance journeys at EMB and I was artistic director of it for a couple of years, and and I would basically like sort of design what this show looked like I I would work with a composer. It's finding those moments, I think, where you go. This is heading in the right direction here. But actually, what about if we try this? What does this sound like? And it's that ability to kind of give and listen and be open. I work with so many beautiful artists where I sort of I guess I set the parameters of what it is. If it's in an engagement context, I'm like this is the bar, like this is what I want here, this is what I want your perception of this program to be. But actually, how we get to this final product needs your sparkle and your input.

Speaker 2: 43:42

And you know I learned a lot in my early career with an organization called All Change, who were based down in Islington and they worked with all sorts of artists. I got to work with the late Abdul Shayyak, who was at Tara Theatre, yemisai Turner-Blake, who's a poet and a writer, and we did a lot of projects. It was about working with kids who were basically disengaged from mainstream education but we used to bring, like, spoken word and theatre and movement together and actually what came out was just so rich and I think our art form is really rich. But when you collaborate and you bring those creative minds together, you you can create something that is amazing. So I think it's just, you know, be open-minded, look at people that you admire and want to work with, go ask them. Like, don't be afraid to ask. I got my job at Rombert, calling up and asking for some work experience.

Speaker 1: 44:39

And the rest is history.

Speaker 2: 44:41

It's history, you know. But if you don't ask you don don't get. And sometimes we have to be bold in that. And of course there are some people, you know. There are choreographers that I've met that I'm a like totally fangirling over in the background and I have to go and ask them for something, or I have to go and have a conversation. Then you're like, actually they're just normal people like this is human to human connection. So I think, keeping that in mind, knowing what like the final thing is that you want, like what that end goal is, but knowing that it might be an evolution to get there, and when you get that magic of working with someone where you're just like, oh, this is, this is the dream, I don't know again, it's that feeling like you just know it and there's just something you don't have to speak all the time, you just kind of find this way and I've had lots of people that I've worked with um in that manner.

Speaker 1: 45:30

That's really enriched those experiences for me and I think it's okay and important to flag that you will collaborate with people that you won't find the magic with, and that's normal, that's playing and being curiosity, but nine times out of ten you will find something um also those experiences.

Speaker 2: 45:50

You learn from those as well yeah, absolutely you learn maybe the kinds of people you do want to work with versus the those you don't.

Speaker 1: 45:57

Sometimes situations are challenging because those people are actually challenging you yeah, and you've got to be, you've got to be able to open to it, haven't you?

Speaker 2: 46:05

yeah, which comes back to the openness. You know, sometimes when we're challenged, that can feel really hard at the time and then when we step back from it we're like, wow, I learned so much from that process, so much growth here. So I think and I've learned this like I'm a qualified professional performance coach now as well, and I really learned that as part of my coaching and coaching clients you challenge like people can find that quite confrontational, but actually in reflecting on some of those things then you realize that you might be holding yourself back in some ways. I like that. I'm always happy to spar with somebody like yeah, always.

Speaker 2: 46:39

I'm not the kind of person that if I have a difficult conversation, I won't then like take offense to that afterwards. I kind of like that. I like having those moments where it is difficult, because I think that is how you grow and learn as well.

Speaker 1: 46:53

Yeah, it's definitely how you grow and learn and it will happen and be open to it. And it's definitely something, something I've learned of being in a leadership position, and so many people have got egos, including myself, and sometimes those challenging conversations, all they're doing is striking that little target of your ego and you need a little chat with yourself. Um, and it's so. So, even people that don't think they've got ego we all do, of course, those difficult, challenging moments actually do make you grow and even in the moment if you feel offended and you'll, you'll have a little chat with yourself on a cuppa and you will, like you say you'll, you'll be like, okay, fine, there's something in that, but we have to be open to that. That's what we, why we want to grow and keep evolving it's also not a bad thing.

Speaker 2: 47:33

Ego either, like there's a perception of one way that can be like the ego is like a sense of arrogance and bullishness and and actually sometimes you have to allow someone's ego to play out to understand why maybe their ego is coming out in that moment. That's something coaching alerted me to more, like what have I said here that's maybe sparked that person. Or is there something else here that I need to unpick a little bit? And sometimes I think we need to approach things by being more empathetic, by being more kind. We need to approach things by being more empathetic, by being more kind, you know, and the kind bit sounds a bit trite, but we live in a really tough world, let alone like the industry that we're in as well, and I think if people approached it with a more human, empathetic, kind manner, then we would probably get a lot more achieved as well. And you know, like for me, becoming a mother, like kids, as I referred to earlier, they're a leveler.

Speaker 2: 48:29

Like I came back from that replay weekend a couple of weekends ago, like I've been working my socks off, like you know, sort of a cast of like over 100 dancers, the technical crew, like you're there, you're like in charge. You're like presenting, making sure everyone knows what's going on. I in charge, you're like presenting, making sure everyone knows what's going on. I come home, my kids arrive back, the dirty washing's thrown in through the front door. They're like what's for tea, mum? You know you're just like okay, and now I'm back to mummy. Um, which is, which is beautiful and fulfilling, but it keeps you grounded, like you know, it goes. Okay, I had a really good day at work today on that, but now I'm just mummy and they can do what I've been doing, or not.

Speaker 1: 49:09

No, they want dinner and washing Again a consistent theme in this season's podcast and actually the previous one about how challenging the sector is and what's going on in the world. And I wanted to ask you and I feel like you've kind of given us a good sense of it but what gets you up in the morning and keeps you in this field with all the crazy shit that's going down?

Speaker 2: 49:31

That's so easy. The people I serve I genuinely see it as a vocation and it's a two-way conversation because, like the dance health programmes that I run, for example, there are people in those programs that are facing adversity every day, not even just dance health and a lot of the programs we work on. You want you get to know people, you get to understand them, like people are fighting really challenging scenarios, and they come in and they find a little bit of happiness through something that we offer through a program, through a class, through an interaction with an artist, and you feel like you're making a difference to that person and I I think that's the thing that drives me and because I'm super passionate about people having high quality artistic engagement, like at the highest possible level. I don't do this like reduced effort, dumbing down scenario. People should have access to this amazing high quality experience and I recognize where I work. I am in a place of privilege there and that is our duty to bring people through those doors to access these amazing art forms. That drives me.

Speaker 2: 50:50

On a personal level, my boys do Like I'm their female role model. They look to me for reassurance, for guidance. I want them to understand I'm more than just mommy. Like that's a really important role to me, but that's one role that I play. You know, they've come to work with me, um, which is, which is super fun and hilarious, and those two things together is what gets me out of bed in the morning and makes me go.

Speaker 1: 51:17

This is something I need to keep doing because I still see the power that dance primarily has to to change somebody's life amen sister amen kind of a two-part question what excites you most about where the creative industries, and specifically dance, is heading, and then the second part what keeps you up at night?

Speaker 2: 51:40

that's quite a hard question, I suppose. I question, I suppose I think this sense of innovating and people knowing that as a sector we need to be agile, we need to shift and we need to change, partly for survival, like actually what I've seen as an evolution over the last like 10 years, is that organizations have turned into businesses. Now you know they might be registered as charities charities but they have to be run as businesses to survive and actually what it is doing is pushing people and organizations and artists to innovate and again to be kind of open, like it's not enough to be. One thing I've seen English National Ballet go from a pure classical ballet company into this amazing classical, neoclassical, contemporary cat act, like a whole mixture of all these different styles coming together and push not only the dancers that you know the company work with on stage but also the choreographers that come in. I remember I did, during COVID, I did an interview with Akram Khan.

Speaker 2: 52:45

I interviewed him. It was for an event which was like brilliant and scary at the same time. I remember him talking about, you know, the first piece that he made for EMB. He was like I came in and I was working with the classical body that you know, I was working with dancers on point. That really pushed me somewhere different, which I guess comes back to that.

Speaker 2: 53:05

What we were talking about, that kind of collaboration, yeah, but what it is for him to innovate and move forward in his practice as well. I'm also excited by this sense of partnership, like I know through a lot of the organizations I've worked for and now work with, is that strength in numbers, strength through partnership, is really important because this, this sense of like sharing and learning from each other as well. So I think it's just that, the kind of evolution, the innovation, the collaboration there's a lot of shun words coming out here that excites me, and also the young talent. I see, man, we've got a youth company, english National Ballet, and those dancers, led by Carolyn Bolton, are fierce. They are like the future is bright when you see these young dancers it's extraordinary, isn't it like the young talent?

Speaker 2: 53:55

and.

Speaker 1: 53:55

I. Obviously we're a bit older and we're like, oh my god, what's going on with the world. But you know, I have I have the pleasure of being chair of two companies I work with companies all the time and talent I've interviewed. Pleasure of being chair of two companies I work with companies all the time and Talon I've interviewed thousands of people for jobs and I never want to leave those jobs stressing my head out about how the world's going to turn out, because I'm like we just need to move out the way. These young people are extraordinary. They are savvy. They are what we described about being open. They know so much stuff and they are passionate. It is extraordinary what we described about being open. They know so much stuff and they are passionate. It is extraordinary what we've got. We just got to keep creating pathways for them to be part of this change makers like that's the thing, and they're change makers from an early age.

Speaker 2: 54:38

They can see the ability to change the world and for it to be something different than what it is.

Speaker 1: 54:43

Yeah, in a kind of pure form.

Speaker 2: 54:44

What I see is a commitment to wanting to be something different than what it is. Yeah, in a kind of pure form. What I see is a commitment to wanting to be an amazing creative, an amazing artist as well. There's a young dancer that I interviewed as part of Replay, who I've spoken with on a number of occasions, and he really can articulate so beautifully his desire to not just be stuck in the classical body but to want to try other, know, try other art forms and to really find his artistic voice. And it's about him finding his artistic voice as a singular whilst being part of a collective as well. And that's amazing because actually he's someone that is going to go on and make change, because he understands what he needs for himself in order to contribute wider. So that's, you know, that's. That's exciting as well you didn't.

Speaker 1: 55:31

You didn't answer the question about what keeps you up at night what keeps me up at night, oh, I think I think you kind of hinted at it at the beginning of the conversation what did I say? I can't remember well, you were talking about the changing landscape in the world, but you specifically spoke about your passion for creative subjects being removed from schools and things like that.

Speaker 2: 55:52

I think that is something. Does it keep me awake at night? I feel like being a mother gives me a lot of perspective. It really does. And, to be quite honest, when you have kids and you're so sleep-deprived for so many years like when you can get any sleep you do. There are normally musings in my head that keep me awake at night, or an idea or something like we need to change that, or I want to shift this program here. You know, they're often the things that will kind of prompt me away, or have we thought about this, or I might replay a conversation over in my head. They're sort of normally the things think is this constant itch to be again innovating, moving forward all the time?

Speaker 1: 56:28

I like that answer. You've already mentioned the amount of extraordinary things you're doing and I just wondered what does professional development look like for you now, as a leader, as a creative, as a mother, as a human?

Speaker 2: 56:44

I'm a firm believer that you never stop learning. If you're at a point where you stop learning, then there's something going on there, like I look back at all my experience and someone might look at me and go, god, you've done everything. I don't. I don't believe that so much I haven't done and there's so much I can do better. Sometimes I look back at things and I'm like I should have done that or if I'd done it like, that like, and it's that ability to be open, to not feel like you've got kind of the winning formula all the time.

Speaker 2: 57:12

Um, I think professional development for me the coaching was one of those things, because I was at a point where I was stuck. I talked a little bit about becoming a mother, that sense of identity, like when you work in the arts, when you're a Like, when you work in the arts, when you're a dancer, when you work in that manner, that is your life. And then suddenly in my early 30s, you know, I had my first Toby and I just stopped and realised I'd been on this kind of treadmill for a really long time. It was a great treadmill but it was just all dance related. Four years later, my youngest, arthur, arrives and then I'm I'm a mother, but also I'm trying to have a career whilst negotiating and balancing, and I got stuck and I realized it's because I wasn't feeding myself, I wasn't developing myself, because I wasn't giving myself that time.

Speaker 2: 58:03

So doing the coaching qualification was about going back to that sort of studying but also really looking at that from a human perspective as well, and I learned so much about myself during that time, as well as working with other people and learning from them. And you know I look to my peers, I look to those people that are in those big management positions. You know I'm fortunate that I have access to lots of amazing creatives as well. So I think for me, professional development is that constant evolving and I'm a firm believer like, if I don't get a little nervous about doing something, then again like there's something wrong, I still get butterflies doing certain things. When a show goes up that I've produced or that I'm talking on afterwards, I still get the butterflies, like but I love that because I think it means you're evolving and developing still yeah, that's an important feeling to still have and I, I still get it, even though everyone's you must have done everything, but I haven't done it.

Speaker 1: 59:05

Maybe the best way. I'm still learning the stuff. I, I still get it, even though everyone's you must have done everything, but I haven't done it. Maybe the best way, I'm still learning the stuff that I still want to do. I still want to break brown jizz. I want to do the things everybody doesn't think possible, but I also want to get that feeling and that bottled feeling you keep talking about. That's important for me. It fuels me. So that's a really good description of personal development. So there's lots of negatives to talk about the creative industries generally, but I wondered what you would say to encourage people to seriously consider being part of the creative industries in any role, or specifically dance. Um, why should people want to be part of this extraordinary industry?

Speaker 2: 59:43

I think, because for me, what I get specifically from my job is this connection to people. That is very real and very human and I think it's very impactful as well. And I think there are not probably that many careers where you'd get up in the morning and look forward to going and doing what it is that you're doing, like there's been many occasions when I've been doing a job and I've been like, do I actually get paid to do this? Like is this actually a job? And there are sacrifices with that. Like, yeah, you're not earning hundreds of thousands of pounds, like that's very few people.

Speaker 2: 1:00:26

That comes to me in our sector, right. But again it comes back to that sense of fulfillment. What is it that gives me life? Where is it that I see I can make change and make a difference? And the work that I've done in dance health, I think, has really emphasized that actually and seeing that in a much bigger ecology, like actually, you know, the last 15 years I've spent talking to doctors and nurses and consultants and health professionals about creative arts and health. Only now is it really getting the air time it deserves and what you see is that this can be much, a much bigger part of an ecology that exists to serve people and make people's lives better. So I feel really fortunate to have a career that makes people happy, that gives them something in a world that's really challenging and seeing how people can fly you know not just participants but also staff members that I work with as well seeing them grow and develop. I look at you like your career, like meeting you at Rombert, like you've gone on to do like so much amazing work?

Speaker 2: 1:01:37

haven't you, in so many different contexts, you know, I just, I don't know like these opportunities, I think, just lead to something that gives you that sense of pride, that sense of fulfillment, that sense of knowing that you are making change, even if it's on a small scale, for somebody individual. That's in our gift and power to do that by working in this sector, and I love that about my job. I will never not love that.

Speaker 1: 1:02:03

So because I know you very well and you're organised and I know you've been thinking about this interview and you've probably done prep, when I tell my guests, don't overthink it, don't write stuff out, is there anything? I haven't asked you. You thought we should be discussing.

Speaker 2: 1:02:18

I think there is something which we touched on briefly about arts intervention at a young age and I think obviously it is challenging now in schools where art subjects are being pulled out, and even traditionally for dance it was like the poor sister right, like drama and music got the first air in, like the amount of schools I went into where the PE teacher was the dance teacher, and no offense to people, but sometimes like they don't necessarily want to be teaching it either, and then we've had a lifetime training technically to be a dancer, you know. So I think there's a lot of challenges and I think for young people like the arts, they're not. You know, we know it's talked about as like a soft subject. It's not. It's what big, it's what builds and enables people and builds that kind of resilience, and for people it's a lifeline when actually no one else believes in them.

Speaker 2: 1:03:20

And I reflect back on my early days working in pupil referral units, which was like a baptism of fire and probably some of the toughest work that I've ever done, and what I saw was kids that didn't fit the mold, they didn't fit into what was deemed as the norm, so they were chucked in these pupil referral units. It was like new arrivals in the country, travelers, kids on fixed term exclusion from school, and it was just a hotbed of absolute chaos and you'd go in and you'd have to try and engage them in a dance class and it's like a little comfort to me, like hi everyone and they're in jeans.

Speaker 1: 1:04:00

They're in. They've got full of jewellery. They can't be arsed chewing gum.

Speaker 2: 1:04:08

Yeah, like my biggest thing was, like it used to be about like taking your socks off and I was like, actually, if I can get anybody up here to do anything, this will be a miracle. But I think, through the work I did in that pupil referral unit, through the work I did with All Change, through the work I did with an ex-teacher she was a deputy head at a school that I worked with on another project who developed this pupil passport again for kids who are on fixed term exclusion what I saw was how empowered these young people could be when somebody believed in them. And somebody did it, not through an English lesson or a maths lesson or a science lesson because they weren't getting the answer correct, but through this creative engagement. And I learned some really difficult stuff during that time. I had one boy who unfortunately went on um to end up in prison for life, and that was really tough.

Speaker 2: 1:05:07

That was a really tough moment in my career because in my mind I was like dance can't save anyone, what's the point? And then, given time, once again, that ego and hurt was gone. It was about the time I put in with him and trying to change him and actually that's not always possible, right. But what I realized is the moments he had engaged in this amazing creative world were the moments where he'd been seen and someone had believed in him in a different way. Someone had believed in him in a different way. So I feel like arts, creative arts, is really important from a young age and there is so much lobbying of the government at the moment around keeping it in schools. But actually, as an industry, what are we also offering if it is coming out of schools in that way, if it's not staying, and how can we help support these young people to access this creative world and keep the creative arts going? They're our future at the end of the day, aren't they?

Speaker 1: 1:06:09

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:06:11

Yeah. So I just think that's work working with arts for a social purpose is really, really important and it's humbled me, I think, like humbled me and stayed with me through my whole career. You see people really at their lowest ebb, like on the edge of just doing something really bad and then seeing how this intervention can help bring them back again.

Speaker 2: 1:06:33

And we see it in different ways. You know, like the Dance for Dementia work I do the Dance for Parkinson's work people are really struggling in the face of adversity work. I do the dance for Parkinson's work. People are really struggling in the face of adversity. You know, dance can bring them back into the space and give them something else, something that I think resembles hope actually for for a lot of people.

Speaker 1: 1:06:52

Yeah, a good insertion. I knew I knew you wanted to talk, so I was like just give her the floor, you bring something up, because I knew you'd walk away, you'd reflect on it and be like, oh, I should have said this, I know what you like. Right, we're nearly at the end of the interview, but I've got two more things to ask you Industry misconceptions or myths? So any myths, misconceptions or pet peeves you just want to get off your chest and put to bed right here and right now.

Speaker 2: 1:07:23

I want people to understand that sometimes it's their own preconceived ideas that makes art unaccessible to them.

Speaker 2: 1:07:28

That's a big one, huh love it I spend a lot of time because I work for a ballet company titled englishet breaking that down into who we are and what we do and what we stand for. And what I realized consistently is that I'm probably going to spend the rest of my life doing that, because until people feel they are able to walk through that door or have that connection or understand what the offer is, there's always that preconceived idea of an elite company for white people, upper class, expensive, and actually what happens is when we partner with people or when we, you know, actually talk to people about what we do, they're like I never realized that was the case, I never knew this could be for me. I didn't see how I could connect here. So sometimes I think all of us have to leave our judgments at the door. And I see it sometimes like with organizations other organizations we partner with where there's clearly an idea they come in like with their sort of defense mechanisms up because we're like the big bad guys.

Speaker 2: 1:08:32

Right, I understand where that comes from, but actually if we can all be more open we can find those points of collaboration. And some of the best partnerships we've had have been with organizations where maybe you wouldn't, from the outside, have perceived that that could work together. So I would like people to know that actually, sometimes we have to ask ourselves, and sometimes we need to be open to experiences, and sometimes we need to put our judgments aside about what our perception is of something until we've been in and tried it. On the other side of that, I do believe it's up to us as those organizations to keep doing more to break those barriers down. That's our primary responsibility. But I would like people to know that, like, sometimes, we're not as bad as maybe we're perceived to be.

Speaker 1: 1:09:25

I agree and I think you know I know we're talking about EMB, for example, and I know I've been in that company what makes that organization is the people, and it's an extraordinary representation of actually the reality of our country and that's how we break down those barriers by being representative. And I know not all companies are like that, but they're rich in their culture because of the people and that's extraordinary. So the last thing that I ask all guests is to make a cultural confession. Uh, so it's up to you. What you want to say, don't get yourself into trouble. But normally it could be a little secret, it could be a guilty pleasure, something that somebody doesn't or the world doesn't know about, you'd like to share. Come on, make a confession, give us one.

Speaker 2: 1:10:14

Well, I've got two. Actually, I've got one that's probably a little more like serious work related, and then one that's just kind of a little bit funny. I think sometimes I feel a little fatigued with trying to convince artists and organizations and people the point of engagement work and the importance of creativity and that this work is not a nice to have, it's not. Oh, like this is the sideline of the work that we deliver. Like it always amazes me when people are like, oh my god, that was really good. And you're like, yeah, like, what. Like, like you can see me now. Like if you can see me in my body language, like I can feel the tension rising.

Speaker 2: 1:11:00

And it's not, it's not unique to any specific organisation, I have to say. I think it's just that wider context of like, the point of it. It comes back to what we're talking about, like with the government, how they perceive art subjects as well. Right, there is so much point to the work we do. But inevitably sometimes you have same conversations with people and you're like I'm just trying to convince you of the same thing here. Like either come and do a class and understand it or come and see it.

Speaker 1: 1:11:26

Like, and then you might know your, your execution of that is so eloquent, I would have been f-bombing the lock because you're very together on x-rays.

Speaker 2: 1:11:38

I could feel the rage as well yeah, and also this thing of like people will not aspire to be more if you are not offering something to aspire to. So that's the thing for me with engagement work and this sense of like education work is that it has to be aspirational, it has to be high quality, it has to set the bar and that that, like referring back to a question of getting me out of bed in the morning, like that drives me. That's the campaigning part of me, like that, I will keep pushing that as well. So whenever people say, oh, I didn't expect it to be like that, or oh, that was that was really good, wasn't it? Or no, you're just like steam coming out of here.

Speaker 1: 1:12:20

But it's interesting you say that and it's something. I'm surprised we didn't talk about it, but I think we kind of did so your journey and your engagement for example, seeing ongoing work experience with brb see, my experience was through engagement with a brb workshop with marionate and the dancers. But most of the company dancers that the public adore actually start through an engagement route. They don't just get pushed into a ballet. Even if they do classes, normally their brother and sister are doing it. They get involved in an engagement thing. So this is what creates these amazing bloody artists.

Speaker 2: 1:12:57

We were here from the start. It was all from the start. It was all. I just think like this perception of like you know, like what is the point of it, and also just people not expecting much from it.

Speaker 2: 1:13:14

Yeah, and I see it on a really soft level sometimes, where I remember one of my dance for Dementia dancers just the most gorgeous man and his wife came in with him and I actually purposely used to separate partners if they were married, because actually what I realized was that that partner had become like a functional carer.

Speaker 2: 1:13:37

They did everything for the other individual, including in a dance class where I would witness them moving their body physically or getting cross with them if they weren't interacting, and I separated them and this particular lady ended up stepping outside of the studio for three weeks and just weeping because she was like I see that I've been holding my husband back because I've turned into this functional carer and what I can see is that he can do so much more than I'm giving him credit for and like I mean that's that's like very specific and very poignant because of actually the circumstances that had put that couple but it but there's a similar thing across the board that people have a perception of of what it is and what is achievable, and nobody should see anything be beyond their limits, right?

Speaker 2: 1:14:24

yeah and whenever I go to an engagement project, I always my my view is always like how does this move people forward? How do we push the bar on this? How do we show excellence here? So yeah, the steam will continue to come out my ears at those questions I'm with you, everybody's with you, on that one.

Speaker 1: 1:14:42

What's your second one?

Speaker 2: 1:14:43

then come on well, I mean actually to be quite honest with you, I've got like three or four that I could say here, but you always say to me I'm a bit bougie, which is quite funny you are but one of the reasons I know I'm a bit bougie is because I spent 10 years touring with Rombert going to the most horrendous hotels and digs.

Speaker 2: 1:15:01

Used to get the digs list and the and the like. Allowance was like 30 quid or something for a night, right, and I remember turning up I was on my own. I used to do a lot of travel on my own. Like the dancers would arrive at the theatre, the animateurs would rock up to all these places separately, and I remember I arrived at this one place it was like it was in Liverpool but it wasn't in the centre and I booked a place where there was like a separate kitchen area as part of like this room, but when I got there it was in this really creepy forest and I arrived and this guy basically came out and he was like oh, I'll show you to like to your room and there were all these like little cabins, but it was in this like eerie wood, so I faked that I'd got asthma. I said the rooms were too damp in order to extract myself from the situation of staying there, rather than actually just saying I don't want to stay here and leave it.

Speaker 2: 1:15:58

I made up like this whole story oh, I love it that ron bear didn't get charged and I remember calling joss he was the engagement manager at the time and being like just just, you're gonna have to put me up in a premier in or something. I can't go to these dodgy digs. Where was that? It was like it was just outside of liverpool, but it was just. I think it was called tree and I shouldn't say what it was called you shouldn't say.

Speaker 1: 1:16:23

You shouldn't say it was called.

Speaker 2: 1:16:24

It was in these trees, though, and I just, I just remember, like I just remember, thinking I'm gonna be lying here all night thinking I'm gonna get murdered.

Speaker 2: 1:16:34

So this is life as an animateur, like when I talk about growth and resilience all these experiences have helped me grow and be resilient so you had asthma and I suppose one other just really quite funny one which was quite niche was back in the old days in Chiswick we used to get lots of people coming and rehearsing at the studios and it was often, like you know, a bit top secret and we had Madonna come in when she came back kind of from her big break. She came back with Hung Up and she was rehearsing in the studios and I used to teach a young movers class on a Wednesday. It was all cloak and dagger. We didn't want the press to know she was there, so we had to get all the young people up into this tiny meeting room that we used to have at Rombert. The floor would creak if there was more than three people in it. You think the ceiling was going to fall through.

Speaker 2: 1:17:20

But she ran over time and I went downstairs and her bodyguard was outside, this big Scottish guy, and I was like I'm really sorry, but I've got a class. And he said oh, just just go in and tell her. And I remember being like um. I said to him I know you work with her every day, but that's Madonna and I'm not sure I can just go in and ask her to get out of my studio and he said do you want me to come in with you? And I was like yes, please.

Speaker 1: 1:17:48

So we went in and I had to ask Madonna to leave the studio. So my young movers how do I not know that story? And, to be fair, it is you, so I can totally see you just marching in there and be like out, sweetheart, love you, but get out oh my god, it was just one of the most funny experiences ever I used to love that.

Speaker 1: 1:18:08

That building, as you described you're not exaggerating was horrific. So the new building for Rombert is beautiful, but god, that old building was horrible. But I remember being there really early on and I think we had like again, like you said, we used to be like locked down, don't talk about anything, everyone would like sneak in. We had peter andre katie price was in there. I remember seeing kylie doing rehearsals there and I'm like my god, this is like week two, freaking out sitting on the reception because I was covering someone's lunch and you've got all this with. I don't know what the fuck is going on. No one, no one told me either that people hire the studios.

Speaker 2: 1:18:49

I think it was like week two and I was like oh, I remember there were no like eventually for security, because we pushed lovely Sue Wyatt to get it but there was no. There was no cameras like outside, so we'd just buzz people, not knowing he was coming up, come up around the corner and then sort of pop into like the reception window. And I remember being on reception one day and I'd forgotten, but we had Boyzone in rehearsing and I buzzed them in, they came up and then basically they appeared at the window and I just went hi, ronanan keaton, and I just said like his whole name, like I knew see that that's a trend, though, but you do say everybody's full name, so you call me.

Speaker 1: 1:19:28

You're like david what that's so funny so funny.

Speaker 2: 1:19:32

But yeah, but do you know what the thing for me that that place? Yeah, the building was a nightmare, but it was a charm and a beauty, like those days. Chris breeze wandering around with his radio listening to cricket while he's putting swan song back on. You know, richard ulster, mark baldwin coming out and doing some crumping at lunchtime, just to kind of, you know some random thing.

Speaker 2: 1:19:52

I remember the christmas party where he was dancing me on point yes, yeah, I mean, those christmas parties are definitely something we can't talk about, but just the most beautiful days we used to shout up and down the stairs to each other to get each other's attention.

Speaker 1: 1:20:06

And none of us emailed, teamed, texted. We were literally hollowing up and down there, shouting across the studio.

Speaker 2: 1:20:12

I remember the building when it used to rain really heavily and it used to leak and we'd have to get out on the roof with buckets and take the water off and Malcolm, the technical director, would jump out on the roof of these wellies and get all the leaves cleared of the gutter. Like just so random now, like that would never happen, but something that kind of camaraderie of family, yeah. And I think that, coming back to what you were saying earlier about the people that make what we do like it is, it's not it's the participants, it's the people we work with. I guess, like what inspires, what inspires me is like being surrounded by people in that way and that kind of sense of coming together. Yeah, it's golden. Why wouldn't you want to work in this industry?

Speaker 1: 1:20:53

huh and on that note, laura Harvey, you super talented thing, my buddy, I love you lots. Thank you so much for being on the show and I can't wait to see what you do next.

Speaker 2: 1:21:05

I can't wait to see what I do next.

Speaker 1: 1:21:09

Thank you very much.

Speaker 2: 1:21:10

Thank you, love you.

Speaker 1: 1:21:14

Thanks for listening to this episode of Before the Applause. Please do tell everyone about this podcast and stay connected with us across all the usual social media platforms by searching at Before Applause. If you've got any burning questions, want to share your own insights, want to recommend a guest or be one yourself, then we'd love to hear from you. You can direct message us on any of our social accounts or email studio at beforetheapplaudpodcom.