Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to this new episode of Before the Applause with me, your host, david Watson.

Speaker 1: 0:08

In this episode, I talk to the Tour de Force duo, shep and Chris, two leading entertainment and experience creators who, through their company Fuzzy Lightbulb, combine storytelling and craftsmanship to bring characters to life and create unforgettable moments of magic and joy.

Speaker 1: 0:24

We discuss their creative journeys starting from their time at Bretton Hall, where they first met, and explore the significance of trust and honesty in creative partnerships. They share defining moments in their careers that have shaped their paths, whilst also reflecting on the challenges and rewards of working in the creative sector, particularly the importance of authenticity and collaboration. We delve into themes of resilience, understanding your worth and finding balance between personal life and a demanding creative career. Chris and Shep also share their thoughts on working as a duo, the intricacies of collaboration in the industry and the benefits of fostering direct relationships, especially with smaller studios. With over 40 years of combined experience, their worlds have come together to create meaningful magic moments that connect audiences through the power of storytelling. Grab a cup of something nice and join us as we discover more. Before the applause Shep, chris, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:22

Thank you, thank you for having us, Chris welcome to the show. Thank you, thank you for having us.

Speaker 1: 1:25

Thank you very much, it's good to be here. This is very exciting, but I need to confess this is my first double act, so this may or may not work.

Speaker 2: 1:33

We'll be gentle, it will definitely work. It will definitely work.

Speaker 1: 1:38

So to me, you're both amazing, experienced creators with a knack for transporting audiences into worlds beyond what they can imagine. So a bit of background on you both, which, from my research and obviously I know one of you particularly well Shep a creative leader with lots and lots and lots of experience in the world of creativity, working with major entertainment brands. You've got your own consultancy and done some extraordinary projects, and I'll get you to pick some of those out afterwards. You've been a director of creative and business development, head of guest experience for the entertainment department, director of entertainment and guest experience for Mauhau Group. You've done cruise director for TUI, you name it. You've done it.

Speaker 1: 2:21

Chris, london-based artist, puppet maker and character designer. And you've got some pretty cool credits as well yourself Doctor who, pickle Storm, major brands for Nike, old Spice a whole portfolio of great work and clients between the two of you. So I'm really excited to get into this conversation and Before the Applause is all about those people that put in the work behind the scenes to give us those moments of applause and enjoyment, and lots of the listeners are really passionate and interested about finding out more about getting into those sectors, how it works. So you two are going to be a brilliant duo to talk to. I also wanted to mention that you both have now got a new little venture uh, fuzzy light bulb which is a creative partnership together, after working together many, many projects, um, and I'll let you talk a bit more about that afterwards, but I wanted to start off by asking what about this idea of partnership and what each of you would say that makes a good partnership in business, and how do you find your tribe in a partnership to make it work?

Speaker 3: 3:33

Chris. I mean, I think a good partnership in business is one where you can firstly, be honest with each other without somebody taking offense, especially when we're talking about creative stuff. You know, when you share creative ideas it can feel a bit exposing, and especially if you've put a bit of heart and soul into something and be like what do you think? And they're like, so it's. I think it's important to be able to be honest with each other. You've got to get on with each other and if you inspire each other, I think that's that's the greatest thing. If you're not sort of like pushing each other on and and and sparking ideas and creativity, then you're not going to go anywhere. So for me, that's what, that's what's exciting about a creative partnership. I'm sure there are other types of partnerships in business world where you don't have to like each other, but for me that's the most important thing, like being able to have someone who can be honest with you but also help you be more creative Shep.

Speaker 2: 4:27

Yeah, that was. That's a pretty solid answer, I think, adding to it, I think probably in a strong partnership, it's important to know yourself as much as it's important to know the other and therefore, I think, looking for somebody who kind of adds to or enhances what your skill set is, or maybe balances out where you know you're weaker or you know you're stronger, and I think, definitely with Chris, you know, I've known Chris now for like 20 years, I think. That is. I think that's the number Because we're really old.

Speaker 1: 5:01

I don't know what it is, but on this podcast everyone mentions how old we are.

Speaker 2: 5:13

Well, we met when we were three. That's what I was gonna follow up. Yeah, yeah, the, the trust is there with Chris. I can't. I can't work with people that I I don't trust. Sometimes you have to work with people you don't like I can just about kind of get through that, but the trusting is really important. I think, like Chris said, being able to speak freely and openly and just kind of express yourself without concern or kind of insecurity about what the other person might say.

Speaker 2: 5:33

I know very much with Chris that where I may be more conceptually creative and kind of theoretically thoughtful and creative, chris is also very tangibly uh, creative, and so there've been many projects when I think we've spoken about an idea and Chris will repeat it back to me in a way that I feel is more visualized or I can like oh, I can see it more now, and so I know how he makes me better. And I think what I also love about anybody actually, but particularly with Chris too, is people who change the way that you think, who challenge the way that you think as well. I think a great concept, a great idea and creative comes from real workshop and friction and you know, kind of nutting out ideas for better or for worse and and I really enjoy that process with Chris and regularly come away from a conversation thinking, yeah, I hadn't thought about that or I hadn't looked at it from that perspective. So I think, yeah, I think I think that's, I think that's my answer, if that, if there's anything to extract of you, sir.

Speaker 1: 6:37

No, it's great, and the reason why I've started with that is because particularly uh, you both have got quite, I suppose, solo roles and careers and lots of people will and actually it's about that coming together and as a solo kind of creator or experienced creator or maker, we often have to collaborate with others and build partnerships with people we literally don't know.

Speaker 1: 6:58

It's cold and actually that can be quite daunting if you are establishing yourself into the creative industries and you know, chris, I'm sure you've been slammed into a world with these quite some notable names and trying to figure out what that partnership. So that's why I wanted to ask you both about that, which obviously connects into why you both work together, which is a beautiful new venture which we will come on to. I gave a little bit of an intro to each of you, to I gave a little bit of an intro to each of you, but actually what I like to do is ask us to give me a little bit of a short elevator pitch about yourself. So tell us what you do, how you describe yourself and the world that you work in. Go on, shep, you can go first.

Speaker 2: 7:39

I was really hoping you were going to say, chris, go first. I guess, like when was really young, I had no doubt I wanted to be in entertainment and the arts and I was really passionate about performing and so I did all of that local and drama and bits of extra work and walk-on stuff when I was young and then I worked in a theme park, I worked in Alton Towers. I was a juggler and street performer for a few years and I just loved it. I knew that juggler and street performer for a few years and I just I loved it. I knew that was my place, my people, you know kind of where I belonged. I really enjoyed you had mentioned it before about collaboration I really enjoyed working with people from other departments or the kind of multidisciplinary opportunity to learn from those people around you. So kind of, you know, backstage costume technical, backstage costume technical, the creative development. But I didn't realise that, I didn't realise how much I loved that at the time. So I kind of pursued acting and I went and kind of auditioned for the big, you know London drama schools and then my final audition was Bretton Hall and on a kind of misty February morning I guess it would be.

Speaker 2: 8:40

We drove into Bretton Hall kind of through the you know the Henry Moores the Illiberate and Bretton Hall and kind of through the you know the Henry Moore's the Illiberate and the Elizabeth Frink, kind of piercing the fog and it had like a Jurassic Park kind of quality to it, this big Hogwarts estate in the countryside. And I remember my dad who is won't mind me saying, not arty or creative, but very supportive him looking at me when we drove in and it was kind of like what is this place? And then, as we pulled up by the mansion, there was a group outside doing capoeira on the lawn and it was just. It was like it was staged like pun intended. The whole thing was like and I that was it. So I knew before I even did my audition I was like this this is the place that I'm going to come to, and why that was useful for me was because the whole thing of breton hall was about interdiscipline, collaboration and and everybody kind of working together and it was a great place for you to find yourself and I think probably more than other drama schools where it's about teaching you a craft and and understanding the work of others that's gone before you.

Speaker 2: 9:44

I really think bretton was a great place to study yourself, I think, to kind of to kind of learn about who you wanted to be and where you were going to fit into this world and industry, you know, kind of surrounded by acres of sculpture, like contemporary dance, like great kind of production, designers, creative writers, dramaturgy.

Speaker 2: 10:01

There was just that. That three years that I was there really underpinned and shaped everything that went on afterwards then because I realized that I really enjoyed producing, I really enjoyed leading the collaboration between all these different skills and expertise. And so I kind of got into festivals, started working with Yorkshire Sculpture Park who surrounded Breton Hall for a couple of years. That in itself was a kind of got into festivals, started working with Yorkshire Sculpture Park who surrounded Breton Hall for a couple of years. That in itself was a kind of second defining experience. And then from that point on, as you will see with my CV, I've been kind of rotated periodically, you know kind of every three years, into a different part of the industry because I wanted to hone my skill set and knowledge around all these different facets of the industry so that eventually I would have a kind of transferable skill set that would keep me in work, which I think is where I am now.

Speaker 2: 10:53

I feel like that's where I am now definitely is.

Speaker 1: 10:55

Yeah, definitely is working. I think you're doing all right, chris. What about your little elevator pitch? What about you?

Speaker 3: 11:01

yeah, I mean not too dissimilar, to be honest. I knew I wanted to perform, but I was also super arty and I love to make things, and I had a real kind of wrestling with myself about which direction do I pursue when it came to education, and I sort of decided in the end that there's a lot you can teach yourself artistically in terms of skills and making stuff that you don't need. You can do it on your own, but to perform you need to work with people, you need to work with directors, you need spaces to do it. So I, like Shep, did the drama school auditions and kind of had quite a miserable time at a lot of them and then went to Bretton Hall to audition. I had the same kind of experience Like you turn up this beautiful sculpture park, this sort of aging, looking kind of mansion in the middle of a field, wuthering Heights playing in my head, and just kind of went. I love it here and and and, as shep's has already said, they, they're, they're incredibly insistent on trying to train their students in being self-sufficient.

Speaker 3: 12:17

A lot of drama schools. They want to churn out people that go into things like the bill, you know. They go into standards, go into soap operas, get them on that ladder of success on television and film, which is perfectly legitimate. But there's not enough work for that. And what bretton hall taught a lot of people, I think, is you can do it yourself. You know, don't rely on an industry. Get out there, create your own work, create your own theater company, create your own comedy trio, you know, just get out there. And whilst I was there there were so many opportunities to essentially steal lessons from other departments, you know, and we crossed over with the opera and we crossed over with design and lighting and dramaturgy, and so it was a really nice melting pot to explore not just yourself as a person at university but like your creative realm and what you're good at and, if you've got other skills, grabbing hold of those and just running with them.

Speaker 3: 13:20

So then when I left, I had a real sort of mixed time of touring and, you know, doing the acting thing but also design and production building, and I became sort of a resident designer for a number of theatre companies and I was building sets and puppets and making costumes for them, and then often I would sometimes tour with the shows.

Speaker 3: 13:44

So I'd sort of do six months design, six months touring and then after a while I just sort of started to morph. What I was doing I was doing more of the puppetry and then I moved into film and creature effects and animatronics and more complex making things and started to pull away from the acting but still push the puppetry and just kind of focused in on some of the things I really loved and let go of the things I'd started to learn that I actually didn't enjoy. And there was lots about the industry I hated in terms of, you know, the performing side, and there's lots about it I loved and still love, and trying to kind of carve my own new direction, pursuing the things I love more really amazing and there's clearly something in the water at breton.

Speaker 1: 14:33

It all the atmosphere, um, there's lots of iconic people that have come out there. One that I personally know is to wayne mcgregor one of the best yeah, wayne mcgregor, yeah league of gentlemen you know there, you know, there's something happening at Brown.

Speaker 3: 14:46

Well, it's closed now. Nothing's happening now I know.

Speaker 1: 14:51

It's a shame, but the alumni is pretty cool. It's really cool yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:56

You were well, like, I guess, any of these institutes. You were aware of that when you went there and I think it was an interesting time for us to go there because I was I was in the year below Chris, but I think, certainly, chris, while you were there also, leeds University had acquired Bretton Hall and so there was a transition was taking place which in itself was interesting because that would spark a lot of you know, protest and and and conflict, which was which is a great experience to be around really. Actually. I remember kind of learning from that and you know naturally feeling strongly about certain things. When somebody stands in front of an audience and says we've decided the best place to put the sculpture course is in Leeds City Centre and you're at the heart of the Yorkshire Sculpture Park, you kind of know that it's fucked right. But the time that we were there but that was interesting because it made you think about what you care about and I think conflict is good sometimes for provoking, you know, creative ideas and thoughts, which it did.

Speaker 2: 15:55

But the other thing you've just mentioned, wayne McGregor, there was a lot going on in kind of West Yorkshire and Leeds at that time as well.

Speaker 2: 16:03

The music scene was just was fantastic, you know, and people like Arctic Monkeys, kaiser Chiefs, you know, amy Winehouse, corinne Bailey Ray were all kind of coming through and in Leeds regularly and I think I Predict a Riot is written about the queue for the cockpit, which was a club in Leeds that we would go to regularly and see kind of massive artists and the dance. I think I knew of Bretton, first because of the contemporary dance reputation that it had a great place to go for, kind of like Chris kind of said, really learning outside of the framework of experimental dance, and so it felt like there was a lot going on with dance at that time as well. Kind of you know, motion House, I think you know, like Lloyd Newsome and Dead Dreams of a Monochrome man and Shobana Jaya Singh. Yeah, I don't know, it's sad that we were probably there at the end of its time, but it was still a good time to be there, a useful time to be there, and still some great kind of lecturers and practitioners knocking around as well.

Speaker 1: 17:07

And I was at Northern School of Contemporary Dance, which is in Leeds and Breton, did have the residual energy. So it made us think more about collaboration. Because in a vocational school you're doing your classes in choreo and academic, it can be quite limiting. Vocational school, you're doing your classes and choreo and academic it can be quite limiting. But because we had these kind of things going on in the music scene, it really did start influencing students there. So actually you did get crossover collaboration or we would do a project and just the social aspect of meeting other creatives. So the worlds did meet quite regular, which was a quite extraordinary thing. And talking about meeting, this is where you two crossed paths. That's right. What was that like? What, if you remember the first moment you crossed paths?

Speaker 1: 17:55

well not really it's vague, isn't it it's vague?

Speaker 2: 17:59

so, chris chris was in the year above me I'd I'd taken, I'd taken a year out before I'd gone on to to Bretton, so we weren't in the same kind of um academic year, so to speak. Um, but I, I remember seeing you. I think I have, I have a vision, chris, I think, of seeing you waiting for the x41 bus, or whatever it was, yes, to go into uh, to breton, yeah, but but no, I think, I think we knew of each other, probably, weren't? We maybe had some friends in common. You know lisa williams and, yeah, you know people like that from uh, you did singing, didn't you with? With, yeah, yeah, but it actually wasn't david, until afterwards, I think, where we kind of just maybe were aware of each other, kept in touch and then got the opportunity to collaborate, kind of a few years later, and that was it really. Is that right? Is that accurate, chris?

Speaker 3: 18:52

Yeah, I'd say that's about right. Yeah, britain was quite a small place anyway. So you sort of everybody became quite a familiar face. And also I know I'm old, old now and I work with a lot of chemicals so my brain isn't that great with distant memories, um, but you know it's, yeah, it's one of those faces and you sort of keep a track of people, uh, especially from someone like breton. Um, it's, it's, it's not a lot of people, and so you sort of naturally kind of keep an eye on what everyone's doing and people are there in the, in the, and so you sort of naturally kind of keep an eye on what everyone's doing and people are there in the background and you sort of gravitate towards people that are showing things that appeal to you and are working in areas that you like and you like to see people do. Well, and it's just sort of kind of organically came from there really.

Speaker 1: 19:40

And it takes time to maybe sometimes sink the creative powers that we have to know that partnership is good.

Speaker 2: 19:47

What was the first project you worked on together, like properly, it was the Maho project, so I'd moved to well, it sounds glamorous, it was glamorous. I'd moved to St Martin, which is a small island in the it was not a small island in the Caribbean to St Martin, which is a small island in the Caribbean and I was working for a family that owned a portion of the island and an entertainment destination. Really it has a kind of Vegas-style strip, a cluster of resorts, and it has a big kind of Vegas-style casino there as well, and it's on this famous Maho beach where the planes land about an inch above people sunbathing. It's incredible and I'd gone out there to create the entertainment and experience product for them really. And as part of that, we wanted to create a really fun and authentic kids club concept where there were live shows, characters, yeah, for audiences to interact with. So, naturally, this was the opportunity to kind of work with Chris, with free reign. Really it was a good situation.

Speaker 2: 20:49

I think Chris might dispute this, but I think we had a reasonable budget, good amount of time and, I think, quite a good amount of freedom creatively as well, to kind of pursue, yeah, this cultural connection with the island. Really, we wanted these characters to be ambassadors for the resort and a little bit for the island. And it was an interesting project because we began it in, I'm going to say, 2015 or 16, and creative development began on it. And then we were interrupted by Hurricane Irma which kind of brought everything to a standstill. It decimated the region. It was apocalyptic it's the worst hurricane on record for that area of the Atlantic but thankfully it kind of gave us an opportunity to redevelop everything holistically and these characters actually became even more central in the development of that. So I approached Chris with a loose idea and then I think, together turned it into a really beautiful character concept met chris. Maybe you can kind of describe the actual deliverables better yeah, it was.

Speaker 3: 21:53

It was. It was lovely because it was a. It was a sort of a blank page really. You know, a lot of resorts have kind of existing legacy characters or things that they want to change or develop and modernize or just shake off. You know, whereas this was a real blank slate and it was nice, we wanted to create characters that could appear, you know, from everything from like signage, you know, on a map of the resort into merchandise products, but also as actual characters that people can meet and can walk around and can be part of the festival and the dance shows and everything. But we also wanted to do something that was a bit elevated.

Speaker 3: 22:38

Kind of a pet peeve of mine is that kids and family entertainment is underserved and family entertainment is underserved and people kind of milk parents and families for their money because they'll pay to entertain the children but really under-deliver. And obviously the big parks like Disney and Universal, they're the opposite of that. They deliver the best in the world and then everyone else just seems to sort of flounder around in the middle somewhere. So I think we wanted to do something that, whilst it was just a resort, we wanted to do something that was really beautiful and make characters that were appealing and fun but reflected the local island. So we looked at there was an iguana, a pelican and a little um, coconut tree growing from a coconut which you would see around the island. So they became kind of our core characters.

Speaker 3: 23:30

And then we wanted to make puppets that were really like another level really, that had sort of eye blinks and was sort of in that sort of, I guess, pixari world, in that they were rich and textural and uh and appealing and not just sort of stuffed toys that you can put your hand in. And that was what was lovely about it really. We had that freedom, it was a decent budget and just everyone there was enthusiastic about it and we designed these characters, they went to print, merchandise was made, we, we, um, we made the puppets and I flew out over there and I got to do the training and help implement and teach the performance and puppeteering and it was just lovely to be able to be part of that process as well and and see the reward of, of all of our hard work and and how well received, like the staff and the and the team thought of them and and and yeah it was, it was nice it was a really lovely you've.

Speaker 2: 24:31

You've mentioned two things there that I think are well we I was, I was always mindful that I was a visitor to the, to the island, and actually, after kind of five years of being there, it did feel like part of me and I was part of it. But but I was really mindful of that cultural nod, as Chris said, I wanted these characters to feel authentic and not like a commercial opportunity. I really wanted them to feel like ambassadors for the island, which I think we nailed, and in particular, chris, in bringing them to life. What you didn't mention there, chris, I think is worth mentioning, is they weren't necessarily like aesthetic, the most aesthetic kind of um concepts to work with from beginning. You know like we want these to be appealing to kids and young at heart. Right, and I've you know I gave you a tree, a lizard and a bird. That's not also a baby pelican.

Speaker 3: 25:25

Yeah, baby pelicans are some of the most ugly, horrifying birds. They're not like little chicks, they are, yeah, so there's. You know we had to take a lot of creative license, um, but you know it was. It was nice to do something that had a had a local flavor, you know, and even though the baby pelican looked nothing like a baby pelican, it was still a pelican.

Speaker 2: 25:48

Representative.

Speaker 1: 25:49

Not a bad backdrop of a location to do this in. And yes, shep, it is bougie. Bougie, I think you like the finer things in life, don't you?

Speaker 2: 26:02

Listen, I'll tell you this and Chris will attest to it. We worked our asses off like it people think you're on the beach like seven days a week. We it was quite an American culture, so you'd work six days a week. Typically. I had a kind of dual role where I would, you know, kind of be, you know, an executive by day and then by night, would front a lot of the live entertainment as well. So it like I loved it. You know I'd struggle to choose, but definitely one of the best jobs that I've had and it's. Martin, is one of these kind of hub islands where there's lots of people passing through it constantly. Um anguilla, um sabre and st bart's are all kind of around it, so people will jet into martin and then hop on a little prop plane over. So you, yeah, you, you meet some. You meet some incredible people there. But it's a, it's a great kind of cultural fusion as well. There's so much going on there.

Speaker 1: 26:54

It was a a great place to live and to learn and there's always the misconception about um artists or creative practitioners that you know having a great time. We work really hard for shite money. Put the hours in whatever, even if it's on three hours, you know sleep. So it's rare to get a beach and some sun at any point right take your perks where you can get them, isn't it you're?

Speaker 1: 27:17

not getting a bonus. You just got chemical rush from you making so, so why not take the sun in? So you, you both worked on that one, but before that you went on your separate ways and started developing your careers. Shep, you've worked with some amazing clients, you've done some amazing projects and we've crossed paths. Um, I just wondered. Quite a hard question and something to pick. Is there anything in particular that you haven't worked on with Chris that stands out for you as a moment that still sits with you creatively, or because of the experience you've created?

Speaker 2: 27:52

I would say that the Maho project that Chris was a part of was a much bigger project and that was probably the first time in my career where I had free reign, where kind of somebody said, well, you're the expert, so you know off, you pop, do your thing. And that was what's challenging about an island is you obviously can't drive to it. You know that there, in terms of expertise and resources, to a degree you have to work with what you've got, but also there's great opportunities. So that, just going back kind of reverse chronologically, that when the hurricane hit there it felt like the end of the world. It was. Yeah, it's hard back kind of reverse chronologically that when the hurricane hit there, it it felt like the end of the world. It it was. Yeah, it's. It's hard to kind of explain it really, and I remember that the, the locals and my friends who lived on the island say don't be afraid of the hurricane, be afraid of what happens afterwards. That's the scary bit. Actually, it turned out to kind of exceed a category five, so it was a scary hurricane, but that the reward I think of being part of something, part of an island, a culture and a region as it rebuilds. You know, over the kind of next two and a half years after that, that that was an incredible, that was an incredible thing. It was very hard to kind of to leave there, but it but it was necessary and I'll always be very kind of proud of that and I learned a lot from that.

Speaker 2: 29:04

But I think, diving kind of back into my earlier career, when I was at the sculpture park, they were aware of me kind of putting on festivals and things like that at Bretton Hall and I kind of I kind of morphed into a role with them, I think, working in the galleries and then became their events coordinator and did okay at that, did a couple of kind of cool little things, and it was their 30th anniversary, which I think makes it 2007. And they offered me this role as 30th anniversary events coordinator or something like that. So they had the Andy Goldsworthy exhibition which we staged, which was phenomenal, and all these different kind of events going on. But one of them was that Simon Armitage, now Poet Laureate, was going to do some site-specific readings inspired by the landscape, the art and the history of the location, and I kind of I was given it as a project to produce, from an event and experience perspective and I kind of I've got to be honest, I hadn't, joined my studies, you know, been a big reader of poetry and you know, and kind of I've got to be honest, I hadn't, during my studies, you know, been a big reader of poetry and you know, and kind of scrambled through English I would say.

Speaker 2: 30:10

So I knew who Simon was, he'd been on the syllabus for a while but I didn't know his work intimately and had to, you know, learn it. But I got to spend an awful lot of time with him and he was so humble and accessible and engaging that it was. It was an incredible experience and we we did six of these twilight readings, so simon would read poetry in a location as the sun set and it was just incredible and I forged, I think, a good, a good friendship with him. And you know that you know that thing where people say like don't, don't meet your heroes. He, he wasn't my hero, but actually getting to, getting getting to work with him, he kind of became it in a way, and I he was, just he was really hot.

Speaker 2: 30:53

At the time there were a lot of people kind of thinking he was going to become the next poet laureate? He didn't, it was Caroline Duffy, but he was, you know, lots of people were collaborating with him and there was a moment when he did the final reading. He did it at the Longside Gallery against the backdrop of a river that Andy Goldsworthy had created, along the windows, I think in cow manure, but it was beautiful. And Simon thanked everybody that had been involved in the project and he went through the organization listing everybody and their contribution and typically authentic and sincere, for sincere, to remember all these people. And he didn't mention my name and I could feel people looking over towards me and I was just going that's okay, we've got a kind of friendship where he doesn't need to mention, you know, like that's probably more of a compliment if anything.

Speaker 2: 31:40

You know, like that's probably more of a compliment, if anything. And then, after he thanked Peter Murray, he then said and there's one person that I have to thank, and he gave such a sincere and kind of detailed thanks and I just remember all eyes on me and me trying to just contain the emotion. But that was a really special moment and I think I was 24, not long out of kind of my studies. I didn't really know who I was yet or what I was going to be or where I was going to go, and it was just such a generous moment. I'm not sure that much else rivals that. Maybe I don't know, it was a special project, special moment.

Speaker 1: 32:29

Even if there was a bit of an ego smash and then a lift in there because you thought he wasn't going to mention it.

Speaker 2: 32:34

Yeah. Tear them down before you build them up. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:38

That's the theme in the creative industries right Our egos and when they get battered. Chris, you've worked with so many cool brands and you've created some extraordinary characters and creatures. I know again, it's quite hard to pick, but I just wondered if there's anything for you that stands out as a great collaboration, a great creative moment, or or learning something where you learn something different I guess there's a couple of.

Speaker 3: 33:05

There's a couple of projects, really that I would say were defining for me. I worked on a tv show called yonderland and it was created by the guys who do ghosts and had done horrible histories. It was for sky one and uh tiger aspect and uh, pre to that, pre to that, I'd worked myself to death essentially for multiple theatre companies, as a performer, but also as a designer and a maker, and had just been treated appallingly and people that hadn't paid. I'd done three or four tours of different sceneries I'd single-handedly built and they were touring and and you sort of go, well, these, these companies, the people running it, that they've got a roof over their head, they're doing all right, but for some reason they seem to have a cash flow problem and they can't pay me. And I'd sort of reached almost a breaking point of going. This is not sustainable. I'm working all the time but I'm not getting paid, and there's always some excuse and some reason. And I was incredibly close to homelessness. I'd had to sleep at a train station because I couldn't get home, because I had no cash in my bank. I just couldn't get through the barriers and I was just like this is insane. How have I spent months working and I can't even get home? So I'd had a real dip and I decided to sort of take a career break and I didn't pick up a pen or a pencil, I didn't act. I didn't go for an audition. I had sort of told my agent that I don't want to hear about anything.

Speaker 3: 34:41

Whilst I regathered and I got a sort of little part-time job just to pay the bills and just to regroup and out of the blue I got a phone call asking me if I wanted to come on board as a puppet maker for this tv show and it was. It was like a starting pistol in a way, like it was insanely hard work. Um, and you know identity, working in tv can be very long days, very long weeks, very high demands, but it was just a beautiful team of people. There was a very small team. Everyone working on it were incredibly talented and people I had admired and other people whose work I'd admired working with. You know the guys who, who, who write and are in ghosts and had done horrible histories. They're all lovely, you know. They're funny, talented people. Tiger Aspect were lovely to work for, the producers, everyone.

Speaker 3: 35:39

It was just a great project that made you want to work and give your best, and we were all just thrown characters that we could design them and build them, and from beginning to end, and then I was puppeteering some of them as well, and it was just, you know, five months of solid, relentless work that I actually enjoyed and I was able to do my best work and thrive, basically, and it reminded me of all the things that I loved and reminded me why I wanted to do this career and that I could do it. And not only could I do it, I can be an asset. And it just it was a bit like having an empty jar. I was an empty jar and by the time I'd finished it was full of sweets, simply because I was able to flex my creative muscles, I was given respect, I was paid and we had a good budget. And when you have a good budget, you can do good work. You know you're not scraping the barrel for every, you're not spending more time trying to save money and work at how you're going to do something for nothing. You can just get on and do it and do a good job. And you know that was for me. That re-kicked my career. You know it shot me into a new mindset, a new way of working, a new way of of thinking.

Speaker 3: 37:07

And then after that I did um, I was asked to do a design concept for CBeebies, for a new show called Feeling Better, and I was pitching against all kinds of like amazing industry people, people like McKinnon and Saunders and Aardman and stuff. I was just like, why are they me? So I did this little design pack and it was. They basically said it's a rough concept, a kid's show. We don't know what it's going to be, but it's going to be about emotions. You can tell us if it should be puppets, animation, what the characters are, what are their, what's their personality Like. It was really quite a creative brief and so I did all of this and sent it all off and amazingly it came back and they were like, yeah, we want you to do it. That was wonderful. I got to design the characters. I built the puppets.

Speaker 3: 37:51

I then went to Scotland to film the TV show. I got to help cast the puppeteers. I ran their department, I was working with the producers and because I'm very passionate about children's entertainment anyway, I'm also passionate about children's entertainment anyway. I'm also passionate about children's mental health, and so the project was about helping children recognize emotions. I had a lot of creative freedom and it was just a joyous, you know, it was a joyous project for me because it meant so many things on so many levels. So those, yeah, those two things really um stand out for me career-wise. You know, aside from the stuff I've done with shep, just from an emotional point of view as well as a creative point of view, one changed my career direction and the other was just a very rewarding experience and I think you both kind of picked up on something that other guests talk about quite a lot.

Speaker 1: 38:42

Which is why this podcast is being created is to give you the reality of how the creative industries work. It's not easy, unfortunately. There are quite a few lows before you get the highs. There can be burnout, the jar gets empty before it overflows. There's a lot of aha moments and it's quite an emotional ride as a creative, even if you work in administrative creative capacity.

Speaker 1: 39:08

It's exhausting, but you know and it is still very surprising about payments and you know something that I'm going to take the opportunity to say for people that are trying to get in industries you need to know your own worth, you need to value your own worth and do not let people take the piss. I like to think leadership in creative organizations, agencies, et cetera are evolving with our generation of understanding what that is, to be able to have that consistency. But don't do things for free. Make sure you know how to invoice. If you don't know how to do it, ask someone, email me, text me. Yeah, it's really important because that stress on the body and the mental health is insane and unfortunately, I do still hear of it.

Speaker 1: 39:55

Um, there's I think there's an online campaign some colleagues that I know have been running about calling out organizations that are paying invoices 60 days after they forget their shit piss. Poor administration is not the creator's problem, so it's really important that that aspect is really something you take care of, not just the output, because it has such a huge impact. Like you said, chris, it turns into this lack of motivation or inspiration. You could nearly be homeless, and that's not what we need on top of a challenging sector already.

Speaker 3: 40:30

That's it there's also like there's a big. There's a big argument for if you are skilled and this is this goes down to those unscrupulous agencies and the directors and the producers that can't get their shit together If you want someone to do a good job, they won't do it. If you're making them jump through hoops, scrape barrels and make their life difficult. If you want something that is of value and you want something to look good and you want someone to do their absolutely best work for you, you don't treat them like they're nothing. And the biggest difference for me was I'd spent so many years kind of doing the budget stuff for people and trying to do mates rates for theatre companies and never gaining the benefits from them later on, even though they then went on and used those sets again and again and again. They should have paid remounting fees. They never did and you sort of go. I spent so much time on that job going around timber merchants to get the wood for the cheapest as I can, so those four days were days I wasn't doing the painting, so the painting was done quicker because we had a deadline, but I've had my time wasted. If you pay badly and you're making people scrape the barrel. You're not going to get their best work. So how is this a good investment, even from the off, for anybody? They're not going to enjoy it, they're not going to do, they're not going to feel proud of the work and you're not going to get the best from them. So I'd sort of I've sort of.

Speaker 3: 42:00

These days I'm a bit like well, if someone doesn't want to pay the budget to do it, then what's the point? I'm not going to do it. Like, I can actually earn more, you know, working in a coffee shop or in a supermarket, and I'm fine with doing that. So why would I break my neck for skills I have spent years developing for someone who can't be bothered to pay it or just doesn't understand the value of it or at no point ever costed it and just assumed you can get this thing for nothing? So no, no go. If you want to find someone else who'll do it, then great. But like, because I can't give you what you want, yeah, for your money.

Speaker 2: 42:36

It's kind of a crisis point for the sector, I think, in some ways as well, in that it's never been easier for people to blag their way into rooms and conversations or pretend that they have knowledge or skill set that they don't, which in turn then kind of fosters a bit of a lack of an appreciation for craft and training and skills that that people have. So so the the the battle for establishing the worth of expertise is tough. But I kind of I say a lot to myself and to others that it's about two things it's about the quality of the relationship and it's about the quality of the work. The work won't always be perfect, because we're human and the relationship won't always be perfect. But if you maintain and monitor both, you know, with a good degree of effort, you'll do okay in the long run.

Speaker 2: 43:23

But definitely it's about resilience right, I think, to still be doing what we do in our various areas of the industry. It's about resilience. A career and a life in this industry is not static happiness, it is kinetic happiness, it is peaks and troughs, and some of those troughs come right after the peaks, like it. It's not that you kind of you know, hit a good note and then it's great for a while it. You know it's like a cardiac yeah, yeah, it could be.

Speaker 2: 43:54

Then go the other way and be horrendous interesting, chris, when I was thinking, when you said that, about the. You know, putting the pen down for a while and stopping for a bit and, david, you and I have spoken about this ourselves as well you do sometimes hit a point of burnout where you think, oh, I'm good for nothing for a while. I need to stop everything and go and do something that is completely different for a little while, just to let my resources fill back up a little bit and my love and energy, because I think we can all get to points of frustration or exhaustion or burnout where you just have to stop for a bit, and that brings its own challenges too, mentally.

Speaker 3: 44:33

I think it's really important when you're a creative or you work in a creative industry or, to be honest, any industry that can be, or is known to be, difficult or have a lot of competition. I think it's really, really important to remember there is more to life, like it's really important to love your career and pursue the things that you're passionate about and you want to have a career in, but don't forget that there are things in the world also worth living for that isn't acting, that isn't dance, that isn't designing, that isn't acting, that isn't dance, that isn't designing. One of the things I struggled when I was a performer was realizing, after sort of 10 years of going, I've missed every anniversary, I've missed weddings, I've missed people's birthdays and I've been single and I'm trying to meet people and I can't, because this is dominating every aspect of my life and, whilst I'm passionate about it, it's not really paying that well and all the other aspects of my life are suffering. It's okay to get more from your life in general, so take time to enjoy your friends and understand that if all of the theatre suddenly one night disappeared, there are other things to do that you can derive joy from. There are other ways to explore your creativity that you can be fulfilled with whilst those things aren't happening.

Speaker 3: 45:58

And don't let go of every aspect of your life Enjoy your friends, go to the birthdays, do the weddings and make sure you are looked after so that it's not so important. So when you go to that audition room, you don't feel the pressure of the audition and everything in your life is resting on it. Because that's insane and that's I think. I think a lot of creatives function in that way, where every interview, every audition, every kind of performance is a life and death scenario, rather than it's just a job. It is just a job you know and you can get so much. There are other jobs. There are other work. There's other money. There's other things you can do. Don't put all of your happiness into this. Find other things you can enjoy as well.

Speaker 2: 46:43

Agreed do you think there's something in there, though, as well, about kind of knowing, knowing your journey as well, and like knowing, so you know, not living by not living so much by the day-to-day or each step of the journey, but kind of knowing the path that you're on as well, so that if that audition or if that interview or if that proposal doesn't come off, it that's just a day. You know in the journey that that you're, that you're on and I I kind of it. It's important, I think, for creatives, for artists, to try and limit how much they live by the external validation and to understand your kind of your own, your own story in your own it. Like harking back to the sculpture park, you know we would have people like kind of tony carrow and, uh, you know, philip king and these kind of incredible old sculptors kind of that were being heralded then when they're in their 70s and their 80s, but they've been doing what they've been doing for you know kind of five or six decades, a couple of those decades with little regard or critical acclaim, and it's time expensive, it's resource expensive. You've got to kind of believe in your craft, in your vision and in your story and your plan. So you're not living and dying by each day and each moment and each bit of feedback, because it can be tough.

Speaker 2: 47:59

A friend of mine who is creative, which he was considering, doesn't work in the creative industries, but he was considering moving into the creative industries. He's very talented and we were talking about it and I said well, you've got to put yourself out there. I said a great idea without advertising. Essentially is is a secret, you know it's, it's not gonna. And they kind of said oh yeah, I just don't like the idea of my work being put up there for people to comment on or to feedback. And I said stop, stay, stay where you are. If you're not prepared to be scrutinized and picked apart and occasionally unappreciated, then this, this ain't the place, this ain't the place for you. No, and, and it's not our business, what?

Speaker 1: 48:40

people think of us or our working necessarily in that way. We don't need to take it so personally. And you, what people think of us or our working necessarily in that way, we don't need to take it so personally. And you know, I think you're right, chris. Unfortunately, because of the pressure, the way we have to juggle things, we forget to look back and we do sometimes take it.

Speaker 1: 48:55

You know, I'm gonna say I've been single so long, it's because I didn't make time for it. And Shep, who's referencing me, stop stopping my job recently, and I did, I put the pencil down, recharge and I'm like god, I've been doing this for 25 years. Where is the fun? And you just got to be careful. You don't miss the opportunity, I would say. And it's about energy, it's about that drive and go and have that holiday, take the break. And lots of the guests that I'm talking to. We are talking about this and they're all saying the same thing. And particularly now, the creative industry is in a weird moment. It's better than it was, I suppose, but in the film industry, or actors, the big channels aren't commissioning like they are. People are being laid off, the funding is drying up. So actually, yes, go and work in a coffee shop and have a bit of a life at the same time, so you can fill your jar again, ready for the next chapter.

Speaker 3: 49:48

Absolutely, and you know all ventures require sacrifice. You know you can't build something from nothing. And so, yes, there is sacrifice, there has to be, but manage it. Years can pass where you're not at the level you wish you were and you're still sacrificing, and you don't know how much time you've been given to be on this planet. None of us do, you know, none of us do, and I'm about to turn 42, which was the age my mum died. So, if I follow suit, I've had my time. So have I done everything I wanted to do? Does everything have to be about my creative?

Speaker 2: 50:35

job. Can I just say our puppets are going to be shit if you do die, so let's put that up for a while. That's really going to hinder things.

Speaker 1: 50:46

I'm going to do my best, hold in there, chris, you've only just started this new venture, I know right.

Speaker 3: 50:53

But the thing is that's the thing. You can get hit by a bus. Sickness can happen. Similarly, you could live until you're 100. And then what are you going to do then? So just don't lose sight of the fact that life is for living, and it's wonderful to enjoy the creative industries and to get work in it, but try and find things that keep you ticking over and give you joy.

Speaker 2: 51:18

Also at the moment it's all kind of like masterclass die of a CEO, like be the best, how I became the top of my. Just being in the industry. Just surviving and keeping going in the industry is success. That is success and you need to know that. You need to kind of appreciate that and something else as well that I kind of regularly. I've been lucky, I've had some great mentors in my career and that would be my advice to anybody else who will find mentors.

Speaker 2: 51:47

People typically are very generous with their time and anybody who's had to work to get where they are appreciates that and won't have done it without help along the way and guidance. So look for mentors, but also look for life experience as well. Like choose the interesting thing to do, be around people, be in new situations, because all of that informs your craft, from a comedian to a sculptor to a poet to whatever. Like, being around real life informs your work and I know lots of people who didn't do that and haven't done that and it will make you less of an artist. You won't be as effective at connecting with people if you haven't spent time with people in real situations, in real-life situations. So it doesn't always have to be working in the industry, to be gaining insight and experience that will inform and enhance what you create I'm talking about real life, or maybe not so real life.

Speaker 1: 52:52

I wanted to ask you about developing a puppet, puppet, a character, a world. Um, what comes first? Is it visual? Is it emotion? Is there a shared language between the both of you that gets us to the point of developing a character, a puppet, this world, this realm?

Speaker 3: 53:13

yeah, I think so, like there's, there's a sort of there's like weird checklists, um, and I think they kind of track. They go over into design as well. You, you need to, first of all, what are you doing, like? What is the project, what is the point, what is the end goal, who is the audience, what is the age of the audience? And then there's the what is it you want to do? You know, are you telling a story? Are there characters? If so, what's the emotional journey? What's the impact? Impact, where are they from? All of those kind of questions, the same sort of questions you would have, I guess, if you're writing a story or a script, or or, or whatever. You want to know what sort of world you're going to be in.

Speaker 3: 53:58

But you know, typically we, from what we're doing, there's a, a client end, you know. So they'll be like well, we want characters on a ship or in a theme park, we want these characters to live on different media. So it's then up to us to sort of go well, what are the characters Like physically? What are they? Are they animals, are they humans, are they robots, are they aliens? Is there one character? Is there more characters? How do they relate and then from that you can start to like plot in story points and those story points can then start to build the world and then that can inform where these characters and how these characters can appear. The client will also have requirements, like we want them to be seen in physical person. So they need to be some kind of mascot or puppet, something physical to interact with, take photos with, to entertain with, to be part of shows. That can sometimes be multiple things. You know, it could be a mascot suit, but they could also have puppets of those characters for a stage show and then they might turn up in animation and in books and on colouring in things or on toys and merchandise, and so there's a lot of kind of.

Speaker 3: 55:05

You've got to kind of bear in mind the end use, because that will inform certain design points. You might be on a kind of direction to nowhere if you're definitely having to make a human mascot suit but you're trying to make, you're trying to design a small snake or a fish, and then you have to start going well, how's it going to look as a mascot? So you've got to kind of juggle those things a bit. As a designer I'm always like you've got to have a moment where you're free, so without thinking of restraints, and just throw loads of ideas out there and then you start to build a visual dialogue and then you can start to hone those and tailor those ideas into the forms that you're going to be using and doing.

Speaker 3: 55:49

There will probably be branding that they have, that they want elements of. So that might be colors, it might be even textures, it might be an overall feeling that the client has with their branding overall, so that you know flat iconography or flat animation styles. Others might be more sort of 3d and pixare and detailed. So you have to sort of juggle all those things. I like to create quite quick visual elements. So we'll have some color references, we'll have some rough sketches, the kind of world that they live in, what kind of detail we want, the kind of eyes that they might have, how old they might be. And when we've got that kind of melting pot of ideas, we can then start refining stuff and bringing coming on. We like this design, we like this design. What? What can we pull from each one?

Speaker 2: 56:40

when you describe it, chris, like you know, it brings home what a lot of perspectives there are on the process, and I think that I think the chronology is really important, because what you don't want is all of those people involved in the conversation or all of those perspectives commenting on the process at the same time. It's it's really important at the beginning in your stimulus to establish the what, the how and the why of this character, what's its function, what's its purpose. Sometimes the character has a responsibility. It's a vehicle for something. Tony the Tiger is a vehicle, you know, for something right. Sometimes the character's just for fun, you know. Sometimes it has, you know there's a mission or it has a value-driven narrative that you're trying to bring through. So I think thinking about the audience is a very big part of our process and reverse engineering from that, is it for kids, is it for the younger heart, you know. Then it's thinking about the touch points and how we can create character-driven moments in that audience experience, how those considerations might start to impact and affect how we develop and make the character tangible.

Speaker 2: 57:49

One of the biggest bugbears and I think things that we're both kind of passionate about, chris, is particularly where kind of kids are involved is kids still have an amazing knack of suspending their disbelief in a way that adults gradually lose. So I kind of I find for our work being well I'm not going to say in touch with my inner child, just being my inner child. My inner child is my outer me. You've got to remember who you're creating characters for and we've definitely worked on projects where we've got bogs down with marketing teams or branding departments. You start to impose a corporate aesthetic onto a character, or like one character where let's say it was a badger it wasn't, but let's say it was multiple weeks just talking about the size of its feet, like, like and rounds and rounds of versions of feet. And you know it's important if it has an iconic ambassadorial role, you know.

Speaker 2: 58:44

But it is really important to remember your audience. Remember that kids do suspend their disbelief and that a great character concept can appear and be activated on many platforms in many different ways through lots of different mediums, and kids will accept it and go along with the story If the story is good enough and the character is established enough and why. One of the things that I love about what we do is there's a difference between something being relative and relatable and particularly where characters are not human characters, it almost kind of gives kids more permission to relate and connect, sometimes with a theme or with a concept. So I love that and thinking about little practicalities like the eyeline there's. You know lots of theme parks will take the quick and easy way out with a very kind of standard full-body mascot suit that actually, if you think about it from a kid's perspective Chris talks about this a lot you're creating this kind of six, seven-foot character that's going to approach a two or three-year-old Like it's fucking terrifying.

Speaker 3: 59:47

Yeah, it's one of the things I really get a bit cringe about, because also, sometimes you have these absolutely beautiful characters, designed, you know, in a cartoon or something, and it's a puppy or it's a lizard or whatever. And it's a puppy or it's a lizard or whatever, and it's great. And then you see it at seven or eight foot tall with someone sweating to death inside it and it's all deformed. It's neck's the wrong shape. You've got someone looking out through its neck, its head's, looking in a direction, and you sort of go well, how is this really embodying the character that the kids love? Like, I guess, from a far distance you can see a big mascot on a hill and you can sort of go oh, there's the character. But from an actual close up, interactive point of view, I just think as a kid they're quite overwhelming. You know, mascots in shops frequently make kids scream and cry. Mascots in shops frequently make kids scream and cry, yep, and and I, and I just think they can it can be a bit much and people get so kind of carried away with the sort of it's big and you can see it anywhere and you just shove a person in and then it moves, rather than really think about how emotionally it's connecting, where it can really be effective, and and I think this is where parks like the Disney parks and the Universal parks are just leagues ahead.

Speaker 3: 1:01:10

Yes, they have mascots, but if it's a princess, they use a person. They have a person that they perform the role and they do it and they're trained and they do it brilliantly. And then they have their beautiful suits when it comes to things like mickey, and they're not too big, they've really beautifully made them. They get performers that aren't too big. They have muscle suits, they have animatronics they have they're not overpowering and then a lot of other characters. Now they have like the coco character or there's um, a figment, I think his name is little dragon. They now build them as puppets and and that you know and, and then the performer with them is like sort of a secondary character.

Speaker 3: 1:01:55

Yeah, and it's about creating something that's much more accurate to size. You know, if, if you want to see, uh, like um, puss and boots or something you want to see like Puss in Boots, or something you want to see a cat, not someone who's clearly in a cat suit there's something really magical about those kinds of encounters and experiences and I'm a big fan of those because you can then create a character that's the exact dimensions of the thing you see on the screen. Yeah, it's the right size. It's.

Speaker 1: 1:02:25

It feels like you're meeting the actual character, rather than some big rubber version in a in a suit and it's about those details for that development of the character and the experience, and it's something um, when we collaborated on a project, I was pushing particularly as I need an emotional reaction. It has to have a living soul, even though we're in fantasy. I need the intrigue and it's not being oversized. And I was also because a pet peeve of mine is people inside suits that have no dance training or movement training. I want it to feel it's either secondary, like you say so it's obvious or if it's immersive, we don't break the illusion, particularly for younger you know, younger kids.

Speaker 1: 1:03:08

But that process is all about layering, which you've described, and building over time, and actually the reason why I'm asking this question, or trying to get you to give me an answer, is actually this is what we should think about when we're developing other cultural or creative experiences. It's not just about the end result and collaborating with great people brings in different layers, but also you need to have that confidence. It's kind of what you're referring to. Shep is basically let's not spend 12 weeks talking about this with the brand department. Brand is there to be a, a warm hug to creative ideas, but then you need that freedom, otherwise it doesn't get there. But layering is important to storytelling to make it feel authentic and even though it's made up, we still want that.

Speaker 1: 1:03:55

That tiny detail of that eye blinking or the glance is probably what separates the amateur stuff and your work. Right and disney work. It's detail, intent, um and well researched. There's too many characters I see in really bad outfits in shopping centers which are freaky. You know why is the character of, you know, in harry potter or alice in wonderland 12 foot very weird?

Speaker 2: 1:04:21

yeah yeah, but I was, I was, I was going to jump on that. That point, though, david, like I, the importance of the origin story, the importance of that research and development at the beginning. If, if you get that right and if you establish the kind of what, how, who, why of the character at the beginning, it should then inform all of the decisions and the rest of the steps along that way. If you've rushed that bit and somebody has just said we just need a big dragon and somebody is going to walk through here with it and we've got, we've got about you know 20 K for it, which actually then you know four weeks later becomes eight K like that's what that's when you're in on a shit show. Established properly, it then kind of quite naturally and organically informs the rest of the process.

Speaker 2: 1:05:13

And I hate when people think that kind of creativity is some kind of big chaotic mess that just kind of comes together at the last minute. It isn't. It isn't that, it's craft, it's process, it's timing, it's doing things in the proper linear order and sometimes taking a step back, taking a step forward. But that's why the collaboration and the communication and the conversation between the right parties at the right time is so pivotal Because if you do it all in the right order, that's when you're onto a winner and all those little nuances and touch points and details and mecha moments will transfer into that kind of unforgettable experience that you're talking about, david, and I think that the project you're referring to, that we collaborated on that. I think we did some really beautiful work on.

Speaker 2: 1:05:55

What was great about that was the brief was strong. I think, chris, we've got better as the years have gone on. If we don't feel sure about a brief or if it feels a little bit leaky, we won't progress until we all feel clear on that. It's not ideal when a budget changes. I get that that can happen. But I think most critical is the brief and is the understanding, the purpose, the responsibility, the end goal. What are the kind of moments you want to create? What do you want people to walk away thinking and feeling after they've encountered this character? I guess that's the kind of yeah, most pivotal consideration really something that's quite important, which you both have touched on.

Speaker 1: 1:06:36

It is you're essentially developing this story which hangs everything together and ultimately you create an intellectual property which, if you get the route right, an opportunity may come up to transfer it into film and animation, and actually you're creating all those possibilities around it at the start and not trying to crack it on at the end where it doesn't make sense, or you're trying to translate something. So people that are interested in working in character development or just generally storytelling, you might end up writing a script for a book but always think of the other possibilities, and we live in such a connected, creative, opportunistic world. That's something that's really important, which kind of leads me on nicely to your little partnership. Right, if you want the best of both worlds, of great design, concept, emotion worlds, then I think you might want to work with Fuzzy Lightbulb. I agree. I think you might want to work with Fuzzy Lightbulb, I agree. I would like you to tell me what is Fuzzy Lightbulb and what does it stand for?

Speaker 2: 1:07:39

Wow. Well, listen, in a way we're launching something new. In a way we're also just putting a label on something that's been going on for quite a while. Chris and I have been collaborating for a long, long time. He is a master of his craft. He's a polymath and has an innate ability to make ideas tangible and bring them to life across all those platforms that you've just described.

Speaker 2: 1:08:05

I kind of. I love character proposition, I love kind of storytelling and I love creating moments for not necessarily young audiences, for any audiences, through characters. I love character proposition, I love kind of storytelling and I love creating moments for not necessarily young audiences, but any audiences, through characters. So Chris and I were tired of doing work, I think, for agencies or through agencies. I sometimes have been in those agencies where there is filtered communication, layered creative process that is inefficient, margin upon margin, and often just not the right kind of collaboration or communication around developing an idea. We know a lot of the people that we like and want to work with.

Speaker 2: 1:08:40

So last year I guess maybe eight or nine months ago, chris we started talking about making it tangible, putting a label on it. So we began the process of thinking about what that would be. And it began with a conversation of what about just creating a catalogue of off-the-shelf characters so people who haven't got time could just come to us and we can give them something that's ready to go? And then actually it developed into no, actually let's establish ourselves as a go-to character development agency who can help you with all or any stage of character proposition and realising characters through experiences. So our mission statement I mean, it wouldn't be me if I didn't drop in our mission statement says that we unite our passion for storytelling and craftsmanship to bring characters to life, creating unforgettable moments of magic and joy, and under that we have a whole host of different kind of services and kind of support that we can provide people with. But it's yeah, chris, I'll segue to you at that point as my waffle dries up.

Speaker 3: 1:09:47

I'm sure people throughout the creative industries have struggled with this. There's been a real boom of kind of middle management agencies that don't actually produce anything themselves. They just position themselves in a place where they're like, oh yeah, we'll supply you with everything. But they then hire out the talent. They find the talent elsewhere. The talent they find the talent elsewhere.

Speaker 3: 1:10:10

And whilst there's no problem with that, there is a problem when it comes to being told that my budgets have to be lower because they want more profit. And I have literally been in meetings with people that I have worked for and found them bragging to clients saying that they managed to push down the budget of the build, but they still charged 150,000 and they took the profit. And that was their selling point as to why people should join their agency. And I was sat there going that was me and my peers that you made our life hell and we had to reduce what we could have produced because you kept saying you didn't have the money. But actually you did have the money. You just wanted twice the profit, but they did nothing.

Speaker 2: 1:11:00

And ultimately, they've lost out because they've got less for their money actually. Well, the agency didn't lose out, the client lost out. An agency farming out the work. What often can happen with that is you have all these different facets contributing to the same concept, whereas I think what, what we are excited to offer people is an holistic approach to a character proposition where all the different activations and realizations of a character or concept are tied to the same ethos and creative thinking and really helping clients through that process, rather than just farming it out to lots of different people and and sticking your label on it. That that's, I think, what we've grown and giving clients that voice.

Speaker 3: 1:11:44

Like people work. People are working in these positions in in theme parks and cruise lines and stuff. They're there because there's an element of them that enjoys creating things for entertainment for people, whether it's just like running a hotel, whether it's providing the stage shows. There's a reason. They're in their job and to me it seems like it's a great shame that that person goes, let's do something for kids, let's do this, and then they go to an agency and the agency then become this wall between them and the people actually creating it. And I think if we can remove that like, it gives the client a chance to have way more of a creative voice. Hopefully they will then be more enthused about the project and that will then help the project lived in the longer term. You know, once we've done our job and it's handed over, if they're passionate about it and they love it and they feel a sense of ownership, that will help them keep it alive and make the most of it, and for me that's important.

Speaker 2: 1:12:48

It's not just a creative input and voice, but often they will have operational knowledge and considerations about the environment into which you will be introducing this character. That's invaluable Practicalities that, if that conversation isn't healthy throughout the process, you turn up on the day to launch something or to let something loose in an environment and, oh, all the doorways are only six foot high and the character is seven foot high. He's going to have to lean over. Oh, actually he can't lean over. Oh well, you know it.

Speaker 2: 1:13:16

There's so much and like with yourself, david, like you mentioned, about kind of training, about the person inside or beside the characters. There's so many other nuances and considerations to consider that can inform, at the right stage, the development of the character as well. Like, I have a bad back now, 24 years later, because in I lived inside a very famous character for a few months and it absolutely fucked my back because there was no real consideration for somebody being in that character for more than 15 minutes and you know it had a built-in fan that was supposed to make it lighter. That actually made it cripplingly heavy. You had to lean forward to meet the guests. So there's a lot that can inform the process, which is why that conversation and collaboration is so important, and Chris and I have had a lot of success with that and it's really exciting.

Speaker 1: 1:14:09

And that direct relationship is really important. You know, as someone who works on this, I am a creative, but I also commission and all I can't be doomed with the person in the middle. It waters down the vision and the energy, you know, and it's talking about the things that people don't remember or they don't think about. To pass on to the creatives is no, they can't get changed in the foyer. It breaks the illusion. I don't want a kid to see them with no head on, exactly, and actually that's the stuff that you work out by being in a venue or in a space with the client. Um, and actually I think we've just over complicated it a bit in the sector. Why don't we just work together more? Um, yeah, which I think I see it happening more and more, I think since the pandemic as well. Some of the agencies are falling away and people are going to know what. I can do it myself, which is only a good thing. It'll only benefit the product and the experience ultimately, really.

Speaker 2: 1:15:00

But do you know what, david, that is? I agree with everything you're saying, and you can see more studios kind of popping up and coming through, which, which is brilliant. There are practical challenges for smaller studios and agencies as well, where the big kind of corporates will have a multi-million overdraft, we'll be able to swallow up different kinds of overheads, and so I think there's a learning piece there for anybody who's in that client role. Do your research, look at who's out there. Don't just go with the big agency who says they can do it. Actually ask who will be doing the work. Can I meet the person? Can I see what you've done previously of this kind? And then, a little bit, look at payment structure and different things like that to help these little agencies and smaller studios come through.

Speaker 2: 1:15:50

Because if you do and independents, freelents, freelancers if you do, you'll get so much more for your money. You'll get something special. Yeah, so much more. And I I had a friend a couple of months ago. She was doing some show writing work for me, really established in the industry, and a big corporate that she's done a lot of work for called her up and said oh, we've got a job that's just come in. Um, thought it might be up your street, but wonder if you could do it for half your fee, if that's okay fuck off.

Speaker 1: 1:16:19

And the irony, which is it's we've already spoken about, but the irony of this whole conversation right, it's going back to what you said, chris, about basically the agents sucking in freelance talent. So if you go to the smaller boutiques or the studio, you're getting the same quality but more direct nine times out of ten.

Speaker 1: 1:16:35

Yeah, yeah, without that weird middle margin, because all the talent is there and it's they're working in studio or they've got their own partnerships, like you guys, and it's not like you're never going to work for anybody else, but you can get it direct, you can get quality and you can get, yeah, and the thing when I'm commissioning and it's something that my teams probably get sick of me saying I feel like we end up allowing too much knowledge leak by working with big creative agencies and they are great for certain things, but I want them to have the experience of working with eucharist direct on character development. That enhances their career and when they do it again.

Speaker 1: 1:17:09

They get more confident, and I see this across the spectrum of what I commission. If I'm doing apps or websites, you know or branding. Sometimes the agencies are huge but actually they retain the knowledge with the agency and don't empower the team. So working with something more direct and boutique is actually, I feel, like you just get a lot more out of it in the long term and it you know, we shouldn't be doing creativity for one hit wonders. It should be for the long term, whether that's growth of skills and experience of teams that are commissioning or collaborating, or that potential to go on a different journey with your brand. So what is the one thing that you've learned or are hoping to learn from chris that will enhance you as a, as a creative and a human?

Speaker 3: 1:17:54

bloody hell as a creative and a human I don't know if there's anything you can learn from me, from being a human, because I'm definitely the mess out of the partnership.

Speaker 2: 1:18:07

This is this. Is it the maya mayaou quote that the more creativity you give away, the more you have? Or I think it. Chris is incredibly generous On a human level. He's an incredibly generous soul and I always kind of feel better for being with him, for collaborating with him, for talking with him. Like I said, he changes my perspective or opens my eyes to different or broader perspectives so often and I like to think of myself as a kind of vision guy, a conceptualist, you know, an idea person.

Speaker 2: 1:18:41

Chris helps me sometimes put that into a framework and give it structure and shape, which it needs if you're going to explain it to somebody else. Otherwise there's a danger you'll just wander off into your imagination, which again might sound creative and fun. It's actually not useful to people. But the human thing, that generosity. I think it's important to be generous with your time. I think it's important to be generous with your craft, but I think, as we've said several times also, you have to be careful and you have to know the value of that. And Chris has really taught me over the years to know the value of what I do and to be a little bit stricter with how I give that away or how have been used and abused and not in a good way, and Chris has helped me build a confidence and a resilience there to actually say no, that's not right. You know a little bit more more often.

Speaker 1: 1:19:44

Chris, yes, what are you thinking? Come on, what are you thinking about? It's a, it's a big question.

Speaker 2: 1:19:49

It's a big. It's a like it could be the whole, the whole show could just be that question.

Speaker 3: 1:19:54

It's a big question right, this podcast is going places, so I ask the hard questions forget bbc, oh god, um, okay, I think, to be fair, probably similar things in slightly different ways From a creative point of view, I struggle with that kind of blank page to too many options, to too many possibilities and sort of being paralyzed. Where to begin? Where to begin? And Shep is really really good at because he has, you know, he's got, he sort of has visions and and of what something could be. He's very good at kind of creating a starting point of structure. He's good at being able to see the wood from the trees. Um, you know, when you're drawing characters and trying to find a design for something, you can, you can spend literal days staring at these things and you just stop seeing the details like. So he's great at refreshing that for me and giving me sort of certain parameters to work within. I love being creative with challenging things. A lot of the theatre sets I used to build had to be sort of weather resistant. They had to be huge and stand outside in a field but also packed down into a single van and I used to love I used to really love that kind of challenge of how to create something that has restrictions, and he's good at that. He's good at having that eye of going. Yeah, that's, that's the thing that's speaking to me more. So let's do more of that, because I can get lost in that, in, in those in, in. I know I can have a thousand scribbles on on paper around me going. I just don't know where to turn now. So he's really good with that.

Speaker 3: 1:21:53

My background is the makey, gluey, sticky. I do things with scissors and glitter, you know. So he, I learn a lot from. There's the corporate side and the business side and the meeting people and the networking side and the office side and the office side and the agency side and all of that stuff that he thrives at. That my stuff's more. I'm in a workshop covered in mess, so that's a real. That's invaluable to me.

Speaker 3: 1:22:27

And and being able to work with someone, now more officially, who has those eyes, who has has that knowledge base, is really valuable to me and inspiring and exciting and kind of. You know, there's all these things we can go to and there's all these you know, and I'm like, oh great, I mean, I did not know they exist, hurrah. So all of that's brilliant for me as a human person being. Um, he's taught me to use a knife and fork um and to not um, pick my willy up the table. Um, no, he's, he, he's.

Speaker 3: 1:23:07

He has taught me about also sometimes taking time with things, not feeling that pressure to deliver everything immediately, which I think is something that happens especially in the making realm, especially in television and film as well, where you've got the budgets, you've got the people, but there's never the time and it's just go, go, go, go, come on, come on, it's the crunch, it's always working in that crunch and actually it's just go, go, go, go, come on, come on, it's the crunch, it's always working in that crunch, and actually it's invaluable to step back, to take a bit of time, to kind of go well, let's just sleep on it, come back to this afresh, it's okay to take a couple of days like those things are invaluable too, and having someone to sort of guide that sometimes is really, is really invaluable as I know, david is trying to extract nuggets, just picking up on that.

Speaker 2: 1:23:55

Like I wasn't always like that, chris, I was about pace, I would. I had this kind of I want to do as much as I can as quick as I can before I'm dead, and then you actually then start looking back on some of your work and thinking, oh, I wish I'd I should pondered on that a little bit more. I wish I, kind of med, meditated on how I could have done that a little bit more, because I would have done it very differently now, and that in modern society, like people don't like the answer. Let me think about it. Can we come back to you on that? It's this or that, one or the other A or B for or against, and actually there's so much value in just taking a beat. Now I know we have timelines that we need to stick to and there's things to deliver, but that time it's always worth building that in, because making decisions in the heat of the moment or in the heat of emotion or emotional reaction isn't the right thing to do. It's so important to take note of that first reaction but then think actually, the morning after a day or two later, different weather, how does that look? How, actually, the morning after a day or two later, different weather, how does that look? How do I feel about it now? What has the most longevity as an idea or the best application?

Speaker 2: 1:25:03

So I think that the taking time bit is really important, the networking bit. I do kind of hate the corporate side of our industry in that world, but there are some really cool people working within it and some really great organizations. I have to say my mom, coming from a family where there was kind of no real artist or entertainer other than a granddad who was a bit of a turn, my mom was really helpful in that she knew to train into me. If you want to get work you've got to network, particularly when I thought I was going to be an actor, so became good at that, I guess. But but most importantly, with that you need to do well, like people need to think that you're reliable, you're fun to work with and and you'll turn up and deliver. That network to get work thing has always been important. But also, like, do favors for people when you can as well, I try and be a little bit of a calmer farmer and help people out, because it does just kind of come back around and I do think the cream rises eventually over time.

Speaker 2: 1:25:56

The other thing that's great about Chris, when he was saying about ideas, chris is such a visual workshopper or kind of you know brainstormer, whereas I sometimes it's in my head and I need that help extracting something or visualizing it, and so I will regularly say to Chris, not this, but like that. That's such a typical lead into an idea and it was interesting, like a few months ago when we were developing Fuzzy Lightbulb what's going to be the aesthetic, the symbol, the icon for our entity and I really enjoyed working through that process with him because it was unfiltered. You know we were just able to kind of be creative, but it was him because it was unfiltered. You know we're just able to kind of be creative, but it was really.

Speaker 2: 1:26:33

It was really useful and interesting seeing our different approaches to the creative process and how that kind of uh, inspired and motivated and triggered the other and I, yeah, just looking at my desk, there's lots of kind of like doodles and things that I've sent it like. I, I love drawing, I find it really relaxing and a great kind of, but I'm not like Chris. Chris is an artist, he's a master of his craft, and yet he makes me feel comfortable enough to send him like absolute, like ass gravy, and I'm like, oh yeah, okay, cool, I think I know what you're saying, and then he'll turn it into something else, or you know.

Speaker 1: 1:27:07

Anyway, that's a gift in itself, like it's not just about having the talent, it's being accessible and easy to work with, like what you know and the reason why I asked that question is because, if you are going to go into a partnership, the one thing you do have to be able to do is reflect against each other to know each other's strengths and opportunities. Often we don't have a choice who we work with we get, we go into an institution and that's the person you're working with and you kind of figure it out. But for those listening that want to take a leap on their own in the freelance world or create something with someone they have magic with, don't forget to take the time to reflect on each other's skills and what they bring more than just a creative job bit. Yes, it needs to be, but you actually need to spend the time getting to know each other on a human level, how you take the things that piss you off.

Speaker 1: 1:27:59

You know that's the kind of reality you work. Who are you going to run to? There isn't any other boss apart from the partnership that you're in. Gentlemen, if there are people listening that really would like to get into creature creation, puppetry, illustration, visioning, working with brands, can you each give them a top tip? What should they think about? What should they consider if they want to get into these wild creative industries?

Speaker 3: 1:28:29

I'm a firm believer that nobody should clip their wings. You know, if you're going to be creative, be all the creative you can be. However, be aware that when you are looking for work and you're trying to get those jobs that the people you're applying to may not be creatives and so you can appear to be too wide skilled or they don't know what to do with you. And a big learning curve for me and definitely a career trajectory was learning to represent myself in a more specific way for specific things. So, rather than being, oh, I'm a performer that does this and this and this and this and this, and they go well, do you make things? Well, yes, because I do this, but they're like, but you perform, they just don't know where to put you, and what most people want is someone who's good at their job, at the thing that they need them to do. So don't clip your wings creatively, but when you market yourself or you're going for positions or you're going for jobs, know what you're going for and make sure you're selling those things you're good at most. And then, as you get to know the person and you get to work with them and they know you creatively, then show your skills, then show who you are, show what else you can do, because those people would then be like, great, well, you can do this for me. And now I do lots of design and building for people and then they're like, right, could you puppeteer and go on set with it and do all that? You know, yeah, sure, okay, that's fine, got it, and so I. But that's come from a telling them I was a maker and then them finding out later that I could perform and puppeteer, be creative. But market yourself well, know what you're going for, be confident in what you're selling and show your best work.

Speaker 3: 1:30:10

You know, don't show the scrappy stuff. Just give them the highlights of the things that you're really good at, but also don't show work you've not really done. You know this becomes difficult in, especially in film. You know, when I've been on things like Star Wars and stuff like that, there's a lot of people working on the same stuff. Yeah, and obviously you have to show that on your CV.

Speaker 3: 1:30:37

But if you're selling, if you're trying to sell yourself to someone new, they want to see what you can do and I have seen people show off stuff creatures, big, major creatures that have been on screen and are characters that I know they pretty much just brushed the hair of, yeah, and didn't really do any of the creative. They certainly didn't do much of the creative bulk on it and I know that they don't have those skills, but they're using that as a portfolio piece and it sets you up for a fail because people will expect you to be able to produce that and if you don't have all of those skills, put that one further back. Say you've worked on it, yeah, but don't use that as your big showpiece if you've only been the tiniest cog in that particular machine yeah, that's about being respectful to those that have been part of that journey yeah, just be aware that it can come back to bite you.

Speaker 1: 1:31:33

And it does. I've had to do this many times when people are applying for jobs for me that they claim they've done things on the gigs that I've done. I didn't see you in the office, but very good, I think that's a very good tip, Chris Shep. What about?

Speaker 2: 1:31:47

you. I think it's really important to understand the craft or the practice that you're looking to get into, and understand what the day in and the day out of it is, not just the curtain call, the exhibition, the performance moment, like, are you up for the day in, day out in your studio? That could be solitary for long periods of time, that could be repetitive, monotonous. I realised I didn't want to be an actor in theatre when the coin dropped that I would be doing the same thing kind of nine times a week verbatim and I thought, oh, actually that's not me, I'm not going to do it. So I think, understanding really what's involved in the process, not just the end result, I think there's a lot of people that romanticize some of the work that we might do because of that curtain call moment, when you're in the spotlight, but don't actually fully appreciate the day in, day out kind of craft and preparation that goes into it.

Speaker 2: 1:32:42

I would say talk to people in that field, talk to them and listen and gain as full an understanding as you can of the industry and the opportunities that are in it and the life that goes with it. And learning like, keep learning, make sure every day, even if it's just 15 minutes, you've got some element of learning about your craft and about your industry woven into it, because it is ever-changing, ever-evolving both the landscape, the tools you know, trends, audience behavior ever evolving both the landscape, the tools, the you know, trends, audience behavior. So I think, I think learning is really important and the moment that stops, you're kind of dead in the water a little bit, or or at risk of becoming extinct. And again, we live in this incredible period of technological change, yeah, um, some of which scary, some of which is exciting, all of which we should be paying close attention to.

Speaker 2: 1:33:36

Yeah, so, I think, form an understanding of the industry, understand what the day in and day out is, what the craft and the process and the real life of it is, and just keep learning. Don't stop listening, reading, talking, hearing and going to see stuff Like, if you don't know you, if you don't go, you don't know. Right, go and go and see things up close and understand. Look at the wings, look at the operation, look at the reaction brilliant.

Speaker 1: 1:34:01

We are at the end of this interview, but don't think I'm letting you go that easy. Every guest and I've got two on this one. This is going to be fun. I give you the opportunity to make a cultural confession. So it's up to you what you say. I'm not necessarily encouraging you to get yourself into trouble. Many people have to really think about what they say on this one. But is there a little secret about you or something you know, a guilty pleasure, an unexpected revelation or anything of that realm? But again, so that we'll make sure that work continues, then people won't be chasing you after this. Chris, make your confession I can.

Speaker 3: 1:34:43

If I'm doing character design work, I quite often just spend about five days in my pants or pajamas doing it creative freedom.

Speaker 1: 1:34:52

Right right, that's a good confession like?

Speaker 3: 1:34:56

who needs to get up? Who needs to shower and dress when you're sat on a computer without anyone else in the world around you.

Speaker 1: 1:35:03

That is commitment to character development.

Speaker 3: 1:35:05

I I like that I also sing a lot. I sing a lot in the studio and then realize that the there's a, there's a company, a big timber work is next to me and I was bellowing I think Lady Gaga and and stopped to then find raucous laughter next door about sort of 10 builders. I also have a habit of letting my staff leave really early because I feel bad that they're working. You've got to stop that. So yeah, like let's do a whole day, and then three o'clock comes. I'm like should we just go home, because I want them to have an evening.

Speaker 1: 1:35:44

Oh, you're such a millennial, I know right.

Speaker 3: 1:35:50

Oh, and I watch. I bring a projector into work quite often and buy people pizza and we watch a cartoon called Bluey on in the background. Oh my God, I want to come and work. For you To say I bring in a projector and we all watch a Bluey doesn't really ring as the right working environment. I'm talking about the kids' TV show because it's very calming and funny.

Speaker 1: 1:36:11

I want to come and work with you for pizza. That sounds cool. Sounds like you're a good boss. Yeah, it should.

Speaker 3: 1:36:16

Yeah, it's called bribery Right.

Speaker 1: 1:36:20

I will come and pay a visit, Chef. What about you Make your confession?

Speaker 2: 1:36:25

Well, it's really interesting Chris saying that he sings, because I know that he used. I know that he used to study singing and do singing, but you don't hear him singing a lot. So that is something that he does, I guess, in solitary and similarly, or when I'm very drunk. You know, when people say, dance like nobody's watching, I like to dance like nobody's watching when I'm certain there is nobody watching.

Speaker 2: 1:36:48

So, that is a real release for me that you know a level dance. I have a picture of bill murray in my bathroom, in the downstairs bathroom. I love bill murray but it's there as like a little reminder. There's a great documentary, I think, kind of like lessons from a mythical man or something like that, and it's all these little stories of when bill murray has popped up at unexpected occasions and made it for people and whilst I'm not saying that I or we are bill murray, I like the reminder in there that you can you can kind of this sounds so shitty and bullshit but that you can kind of make somebody's day like a little brief oh so cheesy, aren't you, chef?

Speaker 1: 1:37:25

but I love it though. It's true. It's true, no but like but.

Speaker 2: 1:37:29

But do you know what I mean? Like a little moment, just just a little moment. A little exchange can make such a big difference to people and it's so trite and it's so cliche, but people forget that and anyway I love that about him. I'm obsessed with Lego, so Lego is a big thing for me. When I'm not working on my escape, I like to kind of play with Lego, or my kind of escape I like to kind of play with lego. And if I need a bit of bubble gum for the brain, I love kind of watching like retro cartoons, so you know, kind of I don't know like thundercats oh my god or that kind of like.

Speaker 2: 1:38:03

I just that is like real, kind of like brain off, just just relax, and then if I need cheering up oh, by the way, what I love to dance to is like talking heads, you know, like that really kind of like abstract if you ever watch some of the dance, watch some of the dance routines, like it's, it's phenomenal I feel like the answer is to get you both drunk.

Speaker 1: 1:38:23

Chris you can sing and shep you can dance, and I'll use it as a real deal at christmas party.

Speaker 2: 1:38:30

Do a do a christmas podcast, david. We'll come and we'll do a live session.

Speaker 3: 1:38:35

We'll bring it. I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:38:37

I don't know if I'm agreeing to this if I, if I need cheering up, I love watching old joan rivers or don rickles or dame edna interviews like that. They just league of their own kind of wit and yeah, particularly um.

Speaker 3: 1:38:54

Shep, you're a gay man in waiting, aren't you? You were like waiting for it to happen and being like oh, mum, dad, I'm not gay, laughing, laughing can it be like an honorary?

Speaker 2: 1:39:08

I'll be like an honorary member. You're an ally, that's fine. We'll agree to that. Gentlemen, can I be like an honorary? I'll be like an honorary member, is that okay? That's fine. That's fine.

Speaker 3: 1:39:13

We'll agree to that, thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:39:15

Gentlemen, thank you so much for doing this. It's been great. I think it's gone all right. I haven't completely messed it up with, you know, having two guests at the same time. So thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your stories, your journeys and giving a great array of tips and tricks. People that are thinking about maybe joining the sector maybe come across this and get inspired, but I'm sure it's going to be a really popular episode. Good luck with the new venture. I will make sure I tag the links to your site in the description. Thank you so much, and maybe we'll rendezvous for Christmas.

Speaker 2: 1:39:49

We should for sure, if not before, if not before. David, thank you so much. This was really really good fun, and you are a master at orchestrating this and kind of conducting it all.

Speaker 3: 1:39:59

So you are sweet, thank you. Thank you so much for having us. It's really kind of you. It's been lovely.

Speaker 1: 1:40:06

Thanks for listening to this episode of Before the Applause. Please do tell everyone about this podcast and stay connected with us across all the usual social media platforms by searching at Before Applause. If you've got any burning questions, want to share your own insights, want to recommend a guest or be one yourself, then we'd love to hear from you. You can direct message us on any of our social accounts or email studio at before the applause podcom.