Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to this new episode of Before the Applause with me your host, david Watson. In this episode I talk to Sven Hein, aka Drag King superstar Franz Ganau. Sven, a German-born illustrator, producer, drag performer and all-round creative, draws on their skills and experience and, with a distinct edge, rooted in the German heritage but inspired by the wider world, has created a sharp and compelling drag king persona and making waves on the Liverpool drag scene. We discuss the benefits of starting drag later in life, the importance of carving out your own space in the creative industries and the fascinating intersection between Simone's illustration work and his drag performances. Our conversation explores an experience within the drag community, the challenges of representation and the impact of collaborative projects, including Queen by Magnus Hastings, an exhibition that brought together over 35 drag artists living and working in Liverpool in a major show at Liverpool's iconic Walker Art Gallery.

Speaker 1: 1:00

We dive into Liverpool's newest drag event, the Pink Pony Club. Compare the drag scenes in Germany and the UK and his friends' aspirations for future creative projects. They share thoughtful advice for aspiring creatives, unpack common misconceptions about drag and does it all with wit, honesty and flair. Grab a cup of something nice and join us as we discover more. Before the applause sev franz. Good now welcome to the show hi, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:30

Finally, we're sitting down for coffee. I can't believe it took so long so long, but a pleasure.

Speaker 1: 1:36

I know how busy you are. You're such a super creative talent. You're out there, you're making, you're hosting. I know you've had a busy day. I know you've had a busy day. I know you've got a gig after this interview, so thank you so much for squeezing me in always lovely to squeeze you in. So we met through me working with Magnus Hastings on the exhibition Queen that was hosted at Walker Art Gallery yes, what a good way to like kick off our relationship I know right that beautiful creation.

Speaker 1: 2:08

I can't believe how long ago it was. There's many benefits to have done that but actually honestly and I'm not saying it just because I'm talking to you is the relationship I have with all those amazing artists that involve including you. That discovery it's been, and following that, I've been able to follow you. I've been to your events. Yes, you have. I watch what you do online. You're pretty extraordinary and that's why I thought you would be fantastic for this podcast, because it is about the wider creative industries and doing something different. So I know this will be a good conversation between us anyway, but I think audiences and aspiring artists and creatives will get a lot from hearing what you have to say.

Speaker 2: 2:50

I'm sure, because I'm what's narcissistic?

Speaker 1: 2:55

So, before we get into all the detail, what I would like to do, apart from my summary of what I think you do, give you the opportunity for you to tell audiences about what you do. What are the facets to that, um, that your extraordinary creative journey? What do you do in your words?

Speaker 2: 3:13

what do you do successfully quickly? Um well, so usually I start with just say my name is Franz Gunnar, I'm a German drag king chaos demon. Today I'm on a podcast, I'm going to give andrew tate a run for his money as a white toxic man, um. But usually what I'm saying is tracking is one of the facets that I'm doing, and just leaving myself as a queer artist, because that's like nice and vague and undescript. Usually I'm doing like a lot of illustrations, a lot of queer, like homoerotic art, but also loads of stuff for like parties, theatre companies et cetera. So that's where it started. And then, out of this kaleidoscope of different illustrations and different art pieces, this weird trekking being called Friends Canal has been birthed. I don't know how long ago I was trying to recount in preparation for this podcast, I think maybe like three years ago, who knows?

Speaker 1: 4:08

time is fleeting, the world is burning and here I am I didn't realize it was in the such short period for france for me it felt you feel like the persona, the look, the, the layered character is really well established. Thank, you. So it feels like it's been over a long period of time, not just three years, like you say. Clearly, that's your talent.

Speaker 2: 4:34

Well, it's lovely that you're saying that, because usually when people say it feels like you've been around for a while, that is death and show business.

Speaker 1: 4:41

It feels layered and we'll get into this, I think, and people will feel it through the conversation, from your illustration and you you know you being I I would say you're a campaigner personally the things that you talk about. There's something there. I like that I'll take that your voice, the voice that you give others. It's quite a layered character, so that's why I'm saying it feels like it's been well established. Not that girl, not that you're old and dusty you know what.

Speaker 2: 5:06

There's also beauty being old and dusty, because it means that we've been around for a while and seen shit. So I'll take that as well, even if I'm the ageless being. But I think, yeah, I think there's a benefit to coming to this later as well. I've been doing illustrations professionally for like more than 12 years now. I was in Germany before and then came to the UK. But I think coming to drag specifically later in life is a benefit because you're already self-assured, you already know the things you're doing well and it's not that it's just another gig, but it is just knowing all the strengths that you're having and bring to the table and the way that you can play with the facets of your personality.

Speaker 2: 5:46

And I'm really sometimes awestruck by younger drag artists because I'm surrounded by a younger cabaret scene. We're doing the competitions, we're doing all those things where we help other drag artists um coming to the stage, so to speak. They're really awestruck with how dare they, how dare they already doing this with like 18, 19, 20? But you can sometimes feel like there's youthful anxiety. We call that to the vibrance, you know, when people are like having nerves or their jittery or everything's super traumatic because they're still on their home on high. I'm long gone off puberty. I've like settled down that. So there is like a level to this where you feel a bit more reassured, but vice versa. I'm thinking back to Franz or Seth in like his early twenties. I don't know what I could have done this, so I'm always awestruck, but there's definitely a benefit to doing this a little bit later.

Speaker 1: 6:42

And you're still. You're still young, my love, and I just needed to say so. If you're listening to this, please make sure you look across the social channels, because you've really given me full face character and you just look amazing, so I just wanted to put that out. So go and check out the socials when you're listening to this so you also get to see this piece of artistry in front of us.

Speaker 2: 7:06

I was just posing for the thumbnail.

Speaker 1: 7:08

I was doing it all that's going to be the best thumbnail. So you've spoken about illustration and then moving into drag, was there a specific moment that the drag I suppose interest, interest, commitment came? Or was it over a period of time, Because I know some people perform and then all of a sudden they go. Oh, I'm going to try drag, but you've had a different journey. So I'm just interested in when did Franz the character? I think maybe you got serious about it and started creating and playing with that character.

Speaker 2: 7:41

I love that she's saying Franz and series in one sentence. That doesn't get together, but it's a little bit of both. Like I've always been interested in drag, like drag as an art form has always been on my radar and I've done um merchandise for track before. So, for example, black pepper. We love black pepper. Uh, famously on rPaul's Drag Race UK. We can talk about the TV show while we think about that later.

Speaker 1: 8:07

That's in there, don't worry.

Speaker 2: 8:10

But I've always been adjacent to the drag community and always kind of the big fangirl on the side. When the local cabaret was performing, I was always there and I was always drawing them, kind of like just trying to immortalize all those great, bigger and smaller characters that we have around us. So there's always been something that has been bubbling inside of me. But I suppose roundabout not saying that lockdown had something to do with this, because big trauma for everyone, we're not talking about that. There's big trauma for everyone. We're not talking about that. But kind of afterwards, when we were kind of out and about again and I was seeing loads of different performers and people became maybe a little bit more experimental, or maybe I was just opening up to this kind of idea and I was always interested in putting on makeup, but it never came naturally to me to see myself in the realm of drag queens and then seeing performers really just playing around, having that kind of gender fuckery of you don't need to be this or you don't need to be that, and actually as a cis man, for example, I can also be a tracking. None of these things seemed possible before and all of a sudden they were, um, saying all of this, realizing that I'm not necessarily looking really mask right now in my clone bite with my lippy on, but I can't specifically point it.

Speaker 2: 9:27

But something all of a sudden changed where I thought, oh, I can do this, this is also for me, and originally it was just an extension of my illustration. So I painted it for myself and I thought I'm purely going to live in the digital space. I'm going to post it where I post my illustrations, which is mainly Instagram, even though that becomes increasingly more impossible because of gorgeous censorship. Suckerberg loves the queers, but I thought it's just going to be in that kind of context. And then, as every drag performer kits themselves, I was like I'm just going to be for myself, never going to be on stage.

Speaker 2: 10:05

And then I went to the first kind of party dressed up as Franz Ganahl, and then I created my own event. I was like I feel a little bit self-indulgent, but also I don't want to take up space somewhere where already other people are performing, because I felt a little bit self-conscious. So my delusion of mind up here, my delusional mind up here. I thought I'll just create my own stage and that's how we started events and I could kind of do things on my own terms, and that worked quite beautifully, I'd say oh, it definitely worked and it's interesting reflecting on what you said at the beginning.

Speaker 1: 10:35

it's it's almost like you gave yourself permission and you created the space for you. So I know you said it's not me, it's about removing yourself and being selfish and taking it away, but actually your confidence that you grew into that made you come later in life also goes. You know what? I'm not waiting for someone to give me a space, I'm going to create it, which is really special and I think a lot of young talent or creatives struggle with because they feel like they have to join a thing that exists and actually you're a really good example of going uh-uh not doing that shit create your space that you want to be in, and others will want to join you yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 11:10

I think you see that a lot in drag communities, this narrative that you need to put yourself out there, you need to be turning looks, you need to kind of just show up. And I remember some drag artists were saying, oh, you need to have like a usb stick or something with you where you have your numbers and so in case somebody gets sick you can jump in. I thought always that's a lot of like pre-work that I need to do, and drag is one of the I'd say one of the most expensive art forms, because you're putting in so much work beforehand for abysmal fees, so there's really no profit in any of this. So I thought, no, I'm not going to do all this work in case somebody falls off the stairs, breaks their neck and I can finally step forward, and because I like also just creating things. I like thinking about different projects or different exhibitions that are beforehand in Liverpool or that I did in Germany, where I'd like to create those spaces anyways. So it just seemed natural to then say, right, what A do I feel confident doing? And also, what does, for example, the Little Liverpool Market need right now?

Speaker 2: 12:20

And that was a drag pop quiz. Two things A hasn't been done necessarily before like this, at least in liverpool, but also it was something that I could be confident in. I can do one lip sync number and another was otherwise. I can get my miles in hosting, but I don't need to be super creative because if nothing else works, I can just read out those bloody questions, nothing about bloody general knowledge, but we can pretend right it's acting. Thank God for Google Exactly, and bear in mind that was before ChatGPT came out. So really I was doing the hard work. You youngsters don't understand.

Speaker 1: 13:00

Yeah, none of this, ai shit. Yeah, exactly the graph you put in.

Speaker 2: 13:05

Yeah, it was all wikipedia. Thank you very much. Yeah, but that just meant I then had a context in which I could riff if I felt comfortable, and if I didn't feel confident in the moment, I could just read the question. So I had like a safety net. I knew what I was doing.

Speaker 1: 13:17

It was purely on my own terms done, justin and here we are so, your first time stepping out as the character, so jumping from illustration to someone with energized in a physical form. What were people's reactions like, can you? Can you remember when you first went out and what people were reacting to?

Speaker 2: 13:39

yeah, I it was. I can still remember because I go to those parties quite often. There was Sonic Youth, which is an institution in Liverpool. It's this queer night. It's been going for years and years and years and it's a really eclectic but also diverse group of people that are celebrating. It's not just youngsters, it's every generation, every walk of life, and I felt quite safe in that kind of context. Just this thing. I'm going to go out there.

Speaker 2: 14:05

Some people dress daft anyways. I think that's something also that the UK does not get enough credit for. The eccentricity that this country has is something that I absolutely adore, and it allows people like myself to think oh, I can be a little freak as well. So I went out in a tailcoat and kind of a docker hat and big sunglasses, but also big makeup and the sonic ufer t-shirt. So really we call that drag on a budget.

Speaker 2: 14:36

But um, and also looking back at this, oh my god, like I was dusty. There was no proper contouring. So for listeners, the context is I always have a white face and a big moustache, so I always have this clown white with a moustache on. But back then I contoured with eyeshadow and it just looked like somebody powdered me quite severely and then just shoved me into a dark room, which you know what Sounds like a Tuesday night for me. I knew you were going to say that Too predictable. I see no. But it was really nice then going like this to the dance floor, because the first responses were kind of just like a nice nodding or smiling, but nothing Like I instantly felt safe, like it wasn't like a big response. I didn't want to have the wow and everyone who turns their head. It was just like I can be here. Nobody really gives a shit. But over the night then then people came to me and said oh, your makeup is really cool, I just love the way you look, or that you're coming out like this.

Speaker 1: 15:30

And thankfully, throughout my career knock on wood these responses have increased, which is quite lovely naturally, naturally, and everyone does need to go and look at the thumbnail and I will make sure I put your socials in there. And the layered element that I keep referring to is because it's more than just the character and you're I'm not this is going to come out shady and I'm not being a shady bitch but you are one of the most intelligent people drag artists that I know. I just think your brain is huge and I I can feel it when you are talking to me and you articulate things and, but your layers, which is also extraordinary from the neck down, is a whole ensemble as well. The reason why I suggest people having a look at the content that you create is because, from illustration to physical form, you can really see the connection there. And then, even if it's a color, you you can see the inspiration turned into a feather, boa or a jacket.

Speaker 2: 16:29

I'm assuming that's intentional, that it's that layered and that thought through you know what, even if it isn't nowadays, I'm just nodding and saying, yes, first rule of track you always do everything intentional. Yes, thank you very much glad you noticed. Um, well, it's, I like the con, the compliment, obviously. Um, I also fully take it as shady it's not.

Speaker 1: 16:51

No, I'm not being shady to anybody else if drag artists listening to this.

Speaker 2: 16:55

You're all done? Um no, but I already have mileage on the car.

Speaker 1: 17:01

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:02

That little Ferrari has been around the block and had a few men in them. But it just means I've been exposed to different cultures, I've been growing up in different settings. I've been around the world not as Franz Gnouw necessarily, but I've seen things. I've done different jobs, different jobs within the creative field. I think it's also sometimes quite good to start quite low on the ladder in the creative field and just kind of see how it is, because it gives you a humbleness that wouldn't come naturally to a character like this.

Speaker 2: 17:34

But the person behind it can always take a step back and think is this the right fit for me? Am I stepping on anyone's toes? Am I stepping on the right toes? Always punch up, not down. So all those kinds of things are, I think, now natural to me because I've lived them for a while and one of my good Judy's pretentious trusts she's always saying that if you're doing drag correctly, correctly, whatever, that means, you're being an advocate of the community. It does not matter how much money you spend or how good your makeup looks or how good the fashion is. It's about kind of having the community sense.

Speaker 1: 18:15

and if you have that as your backbone, then everything kind of naturally falls into place because you have a mission statement instead of chasing that, that fame, I suppose no, that's great and I think you just articulated some of the things I that I try and get across in all the episodes with all the guests on it is actually you do need to branch out, play, explore, build that layering system, that experience, and not be so narrow-minded in the end result. It's actually the journey to get there because it gives you that experience, like you said, and the layers which translates into confidence, ultimately to create a better character and a better person. Yeah, in that way, I've got a question and this might be like a weird way to put it out there Is there a separation for you from Sev and Franceance or is it one entity?

Speaker 2: 19:06

I've thought about this a lot, maybe not like really consciously, but I was going into this. Obviously, having an idea of this is who I'm going to embody, and, again, a lot of youngsters are doing this that they have a real high concept and they're building this box for themselves. That then means you can only play within the perimeters that you set yourself. Rookie mistake I did with myself, um, because I thought this is going to be like a real like. On the vision board beforehand was vampires, george michael, a lot of like masculine energy, berlin, dark rooms, cozy glory holes, things like that. And then, when I first stepped onto the scene, none of this translated. Instead, I was just a camp cow that could not dance, just gently waving at people and being a little bit cutesy. What the fuck just happened there? That's not what I had envisioned.

Speaker 2: 19:59

So I suppose, long story short, it is something different, but it's always settled within myself like, privately set. It's also a chem cow. I'm not necessarily the most muscular mass kind of guy, but it is turned up to 100 when Franz Ganahl comes on stage, and I think that is important as well, because if it would be like this all the time, my God would I get into issues and probably a lot of legal fees, lovelies but it needs to sit somewhere within yourself, because if you're trying to do something that's entirely estranged from you, then the audience will feel that there will be this kind of distrust. When you step onto the stage and like this person is not telling truth and whatever that means in art, we can go into this, but I'm probably not prepared for this right now.

Speaker 1: 20:47

I haven't read up on all the philosophers and that's a nice way to describe it and I wondered if you think about it in a bit more detail. What does france give sev and what does sev give france?

Speaker 2: 21:01

france gives sev a lot of sleepless nights, empty bank accounts and too many sdis. No, I think france gives sev a little bit more ease. Like I think, in life we're all struggling with the state of the world, the economy, people being absolute bastards. So then having an escapism and I like that you said I come across as intelligent, but really France is meant to be your stupid escape. Like it should be funny, it should be engaging. It maybe makes you think, but it's always with a wink and a smile. And having that in my life now and doing this on stage allows me then sometimes, when I'm feeling I'm a bloody tax returns or things like that to step back and think is it actually that serious? Can I find somewhere something nice or some ease in this that I maybe wouldn't have had before, especially because germans are not necessarily known for being at ease or relaxed at any point. Vice versa, I think SAF gives France a leg up in the competition because I'm structured, I'm organized, I know what I want, I'm outspoken and still also understand human connection. If that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 22:19

You need to be able to work with other people and you cannot have this idea of I'm the star, I'm going to go on stage, I'm going to be able to work with other people. And you cannot have this idea of I'm the star, I'm going to go on stage, I'm going to be the greatest person. And loads of younger artists fall into this because they need to fake it to themselves, which is absolutely fine, like I was at that stage as well, where I didn't have necessarily the confidence. I had to tap into the delulu, so to speak, and think, yes, I'm going to be this great star, because if I actually think of what I'm doing next and like, for example, I don't know, do a striptease on stage, I'm going to crumble. So I can't have that uncertainty. But in this delusion you always need to have a grain of reality, because otherwise you're just being an absolute asshole to everyone that you work with.

Speaker 1: 22:58

So that's kind of the two two sides to this yeah, that's a great um explanation of it and that applies, I think, no matter what route art form you want to come into, even if it's not you're not a performer, it's. It's those authentic moments. It's about using that kind of yin and yang to to help each other absolutely like.

Speaker 2: 23:20

I've worked with curators before that were absolutely lovely and they had a great like. You're a great example, having done this great exhibition with Magnus Hastings. Yes, we all threw ourselves at this because it's a great opportunity. But if we would have had somebody there that feels exploitative, or somebody that feels like they don't know what they're doing or they're only doing this because it looks great on their CV, I think the community wouldn't have shown up the same way as they did. And I've worked with curators before where I had to tap out of the exhibition because I thought this is only either choking like I'm the one queer artist that you have on the lineup, which is not really exciting me or who were just so full of themselves that it became tedious in conversations.

Speaker 1: 24:06

And so this kind of mindset applies anywhere within the art business, so to speak. So let's talk about Queen by Magnus Hastings' experience.

Speaker 2: 24:12

Oh yes, let's talk about it.

Speaker 1: 24:13

Let's talk about it.

Speaker 2: 24:14

Let's dish out the drama.

Speaker 1: 24:16

The gossip in the alleyway and I think you were one of the first that I spoke to about being involved and you were like yes, instant. I was like wow, which is, and you know, and to be fair, everybody that was involved were extremely generous with their time. Amazing, everybody said yes, if they were here, even people changed their schedules that were meant to be in Europe, or it was quite extraordinary a community of eager bottoms the day was great.

Speaker 1: 24:48

I just wondered now you've had a bit of a gap between us creating in the alleyway on that scorching day, which the alleyway, by the way, was rough. It was rough, um, the show was amazing, the party now you've had a bit of space from it. I just wondered if you've had any reflections on the party now you've had a bit of space from it. I just wondered if you've had any reflections on the experience for you about being involved and maybe what it may now mean for you. Now you've had a bit of thinking space I'm prepared for that one.

Speaker 2: 25:12

I think it's still um, it still holds a very special place in my heart because it really played with my expectations. I was expecting, when you said, oh, it's going to be between 35 to 45 drag artists, that A it's going to be an absolute catfight. I had my scissors ready. I was like I'm going to cut a bitch. So already coming into that space where we sat in Lisbon getting ready, and it just felt like a class reunion granted, a really special class reunion, special Like none of those bitches had passed anything.

Speaker 2: 25:49

It was crazy, but it was really nice, because we really rarely have that in the cabaret scene or in the drag scene or whatever you want to call this that you can have more than half an hour to sit down and actually talk to each other, because usually people are on the run, run different directions all across the country, even different countries, like I'm sometimes performing in germany, back my hometown, then I'm back here again. You're not really having the time to have that many people together in one space and talk to each other. So that was kind of a nice surprise of actually these kind of bitchy personas, the divas that we're seeing in the community. That's all just a front and everyone's actually really really nice, except of a few, uh people that are worth name, but I'm looking straight down the barrel. Um, that was one surprise.

Speaker 2: 26:35

The other surprise was that we obviously had heard of magnus hasting and having somebody who had shot so many different artists. I had mentally prepared myself that I might be in a shot great. But I was purely just doing this for the experience. I wasn't even banking on being anywhere in the exhibition. But I also mentally prepared myself again for there's going to be somebody who's really famous, who has like five minutes for you, and it's going to be an in-and-out thing and the reality of standing in a piss-drenched alley and we're like Chicken pigeons.

Speaker 1: 27:06

It was rough, yes.

Speaker 2: 27:08

Sounds like my first apartment, anyways. And then there was Magnus and he was really approachable and he really took time out of this busy day to make everyone feel welcome, to walk through things, to make people feel like they could also participate in this, more than just being a body in an alleyway, but actually having a say in how we want to do this. And it was such a lovely atmosphere. It was obviously rapid fire, which you expect, but yeah, those were kind of the two surprises. And then, obviously, having a big exhibition and it felt a little bit like being appreciated, especially especially in an exhibition like Queen. So I've got a bone to pick with you now. I'm bringing the drama now.

Speaker 2: 27:48

Obviously, the drag community is not just drag queens, and having myself in there as a drag king and having that kind of representation felt really good. It felt like, yes, it's right that that is in there, especially when the title is just Queen. I still think there needs to be more representation and that's not just an exhibition, that's also the bloody TV shows that we're seeing, etc. Where there is this kind of class sitting for drag kings, where there's the assumption we cannot do as well as drag queens. Well, the reality is. It's really down to the individual. Like the box will not tell you what's in it, you unfortunately put your whole fist in and grab one of the artists and get them out of the box and just that's a really weird metaphor for trying to hire. I was wondering where you're going with that.

Speaker 2: 28:38

But yeah, so that's kind of the reflection that I have.

Speaker 1: 28:41

No, it's really great. It is really great and I think, for context, for listeners, my intention around that show was, of course, to work with an icon like Magnus, but to be representative of the reality of the community. The title came after much deliberation and I actually called it Queen, with the agreement of Magnus, to represent Liverpool and how people refer to each other and to then challenge expectations about it is not drag queens, it is drag kings and those in between, and I'm really proud of what we've created there and the pictures are amazing and particularly what you referenced, the camaraderie, the nice time together with everybody. I recognize that that is really rare and that was a great bonding moment for everybody to feel acknowledged and seen. But also, and genuinely and if people don't believe me, you could ask the artist involved or Magnus they didn't get to pick who they were with.

Speaker 1: 29:44

It was me, me pairing and some of the team and Magnus, because we knew that people naturally gravitate. So some of it was like playing and it didn't look right, but actually the point was for me is mixing it up, showing that beautiful array of talent, but it really was to get people thinking and I'm very grateful grateful, of course that you were part of that and hopefully you have an image that marks a moment for you that will be always special, not because it's on a wall in a show or by Magnus, but for you it means something when you look at it in a few more years.

Speaker 2: 30:17

Oh, yeah, I mean literally it's. I can see it right there in the background.

Speaker 1: 30:22

Obviously the single shot, not the group shot, excuse me you had many beautiful single shots Talking about being a drag king in that space. What do you think people still misunderstand about drag kings?

Speaker 2: 30:37

I think drag kinging is an art form that has been mainly performed by people that identify as lesbians, people who are not fitting necessarily into that bracket of a drag queen, or who usually performs as track queens. Obviously we're softening these labels as well, which is good, but historically it was kind of a different crowd who would be in the tracking bracket and I think the misconception is that the art form is also only for that community, so it's only within that kind of bubble that it really sings, which is not. The other part about this is that performing masculinity in all its facets and all its shades often feels, or the assumption often is, that we cannot be as glamorous or as diva as drag queens, who are kind of encapsulating this idea of a female pop star, and I suppose if you put them in direct competition on that level, you might be right if I'm pairing like a male pop star with a female pop star. The male pop star is always bloody bland, which is obviously patriarchy, heteronormative lifestyle, you guys. But if you're actually starting to engage with a tracking community and thinking what can they offer? It's the exact same diversity, the same unpredictableness that track queens bring to the stage.

Speaker 2: 32:16

So you have people that are doing comedy. You have people that are really good at dancing. You have people that are doing burlesque, people that do stripping. You have people that are doing forlesque. You have people that do stripping. You have people that are doing, for whatever fucking reason, story time with children, which my worst nightmare would never do it. But to each their own. So I think, if I would have the idea of any kind of producer, there is a real strength to casting a diverse lineup, not just because it is politically correct, not just because we're dismantling power structures, not just because you're giving different communities fees to pay, like you're enabling them money-wise, no, like if we strip all of this away, which are obviously good arguments, but if you can't be persuaded that way.

Speaker 2: 33:00

Having a diverse lineup and diversity also just means not just having like people like myself who are, for example, cis white men, but all kinds of different people in the lineup. It will make for more interesting show, and I think the best example of that is the pink pony club that uh truss burst into the liverpool zeitge, this kind of competition that I'm hosting with her because we have so many different people. We have somebody who is, for example, doing really old school comedy drag with funny songs. We have somebody who is a scare actor. We have somebody who is more classifying themselves, I suppose, as like a drag clown or a track thing, and there's so many different shades to it that then every single person is exciting.

Speaker 2: 33:46

If I have 15 times RuPaul's Drag Race girls that are all doing the chaplain, that's not exciting. One of them is exciting, but I don't need to see this 15 times over the course of one and a half hours because then I'm going to the bar and blow someone. But you know what I mean. You need that kind of diversity, not just because it's the right thing to do, but also it makes for more exciting shows, and I don't know how people miss this constantly.

Speaker 1: 34:08

So that's my soapbox moment love it, love it and and pink pony club, tell the audience what it is. Where is it?

Speaker 2: 34:17

it's in heaven what's going on. So the pink pony club is a competition of drag artists, as I said, invented by uh, pretentious tross, local art, which an absolute nuisance, but giving up for the bold people and she kind of came up with this concept of an old drag night where a we would have really different performers, so it makes like a richer kind of sense of community, um, specifically focused on the north. So we're having this kind of focus on the artists that are usually not maybe that focused on and uh, we have all the artists coming back for all the six episodes uh that we have and having uh once a month and they have different themes. That allows us to follow all those artists right up to the finale, which is going to be in july I think it's the 24th of july, right before liverpool pride happens. So it's going to be in heaven.

Speaker 2: 35:14

But everything, all the dates you can find at pink pony club on instagram and it's a really wholesome experience where we don't kick anyone out. They're also all getting paid for their time, which is obviously nice and unique in the competition realm. But we don't lose that kind of edge. There's still a competition. People still want to get to the end, to make the most points, to get the title of show pony or whatever else trust has workshopped for that day as a title work in progress. People really enjoyed hosting it, really enjoying being part of this and it kind of was like a full circle moment we talked beforehand about. When drag came into my life, it was always from this kind of fangirling perspective, kind of being a cheerleader on the site, just amazed with what people can do. And it's lovely being there again, because I'm not judging, I'm not giving any points, I'm literally the number one fan boy standing on stage hosting and just being amazed.

Speaker 1: 36:11

I got essentially the best seat in the house without needing to pay a bloody ticket, which is this is how to play the system you've learned is extraordinary, so make sure you check out the links and go and explore this, and it feels very natural that you're involved in this and obviously shout out to pretentious, she's gorgeous, talented, sickening. Sickening is the right word.

Speaker 1: 36:34

Yes, very intelligent human that is very generous, community-wise, and I feel like you're very generous and I wondered what's it like being part of the community of queer artists, drag artists in Liverpool. For you, what's it like to be part of that scene?

Speaker 2: 36:56

That is a funny question, because I think both as Franz and Sav, because I think both as Franz and Sav, I'm in this weird bracket of I'm doing this kind of work, I'm doing this kind of work well, but it's not my main focus. I'm doing other jobs, I'm doing my illustrations, et cetera, and with that I'm always a little bit the odd one out. It took me a long time to be okay with this no-transcript. It's kind of also discounting what other people are doing, I suppose, because you're like oh, it's just a hobby, we're all just doing this for fun. No, some people are doing this to purely pay their bills. I know so many artists that are doing this seven days a week with no rest whatsoever. So I kind of pivoted on that point. And talking about the Magnus Hastings exhibition, that was actually one of the points where I started to feel like, oh, I'm actually more connected, I can see the through lines and I can see who I can gel with, and since then it has felt really nice and engaged. It felt like there are loads of people out there that do not fit the normal mainstream bracket, to say it that way, and there's a lot of that in Liverpool which I really appreciate and I think that is also marking the background of this kind of Franz Knau character that I grew up in, for example, the Eat Me Club, where there are so many kind of punk performers but people don't really give a shit, allegedly they're deeply caring.

Speaker 2: 38:25

But kind of this attitude obviously is what carries through and the comedy that is within this, and it allowed for these bubbles of community to become bigger as well. So, for example, we finally got it off the ground that we founded the Merseyside King Collective. We had our very first show, mannequin Cabaret, at Unity Theatre. I think it was in March. Things are blending together. It was the second sold-out show that I was hosting in the scope of two weeks. Thank you very much, people. But I didn't produce that one. It was produced by all the people in the collective and that was another gorgeous way of creating community where all of a sudden we have this, which usually is only found in cities like London or Manchester, and we can finally hold that within Liverpool as well. Hopefully that becomes bigger and gets more people involved with the drag king scene specifically, but also the queer community having things like that in the Unity Theatre. It's always exciting. So, yeah, that's. That's kind of where we're currently at.

Speaker 1: 39:25

I suppose, which is exciting, it's always growing in. You know it's. I know you've just described maybe not being in it all because you're doing other things, but you are involved. I know you're involved. I've seen you liking it, support it, share it. You turn up and actually that's part of being in the community, not just physically being there, and people do appreciate it having that support from other types of artists and even the rude girls that do it. They love when the slightly bonkers different queens, alternative kings in between a part of that.

Speaker 2: 39:59

It's amazing they love it, oh yeah absolutely, yeah, like when I'm when I'm talking smack about the format, that is purely about the format, because the track queens that are on the uk show a, they're all hiring me for my merch, so please, um, commission me, thank you very much next season. But also, they obviously also grew up in this unique uk cabaret bubble where everyone knows how bonkers uh the art scene is, how weird it is navigating arts council underfunding and being on this like weird rock uh, away from the rest of europe and kind of making it work, being eccentric. So I had nothing but good experiences with people that were on that format um, but I have issues with the format itself because it comes from america, so we're not opening that can of worms.

Speaker 1: 40:57

And it's interesting, you know. So I know that part of the reason why Michelle Visage particularly championed a unique UK version was because of how eclectic and different it was and represent and rue. I've not been in the room with them, but they say that is why they agree to it, because it is very different, which is great for us because it's celebrating our unique identity. I have to ask the question would you ever consider doing it? Fuck no no, like.

Speaker 2: 41:30

No, I'm not joking, it's. I got this asked several times. It was somewhere else the other day where they asked me this.

Speaker 1: 41:36

I know it's the most probably frequently asked question. It's probably annoying. No, it's not annoying.

Speaker 2: 41:41

I think it's lovely that people are asking or thinking that I could go anywhere near that level of artistry, because obviously the people that are going on that show they are peak in what they're doing the costumes, the makeup. So what they're doing, the costumes, the makeup so I always take it as a compliment. But it's not just the queen of fracking that is discouraging me from joining, it's also just the exciting. I don't think that I'm meant for stardom. I think if I would know all the opinions of the public about me and my art I would probably crumble. I don't think necessarily humans are made for that level of stardom either. So I think people kind of chasing the big rush seems always a bit strange to me.

Speaker 2: 42:27

I enjoy what I'm doing and that's really nice. And obviously I enjoy when people come afterwards to the show and say you're great or what you're doing is great, feels nice. But that only feels nice because we shared that moment, because you were with me in the room, being part of the audience, having that energy. I think I would feel very different if I would have a stranger come to me on the street and say I see what you're doing online and I'll have loads of opinions, or you've been robbed, or actually you're not that good at lip-syncing. Whatever it is, I've been, yeah, my show's in bitch. So no, I don't think, I don't think I'm cut out for anything like that. We love you doing what you do anyway.

Speaker 1: 43:07

That's what makes you special. You've already mentioned that you're from germany. You obviously live here. What's the biggest difference in terms of arts and culture, and in particularly being a queer artist, between the two countries? Most people already know because we're all fuming the incredible investment in arts and culture over there. It's insane. But apart from the money, I just wondered what the difference might be that some people that have never been to Germany already engaged with German artists. What would the difference be really? I think I can't.

Speaker 2: 43:39

Great start to an answer, franz. Great start Just stumbling through the bloody words. We can cut that right. So I've been involved in several facets of the art industry in Germany. I started my whole journey as an illustrator for a vintage fashion magazine where they gave me more responsibility. I could become an art director and I moved from there, had exhibitions, and on that level it always felt very accessible. I suppose it felt like people could just enter that realm and try out things. And that might just be my own experience or it might translate to other people who also work in Germany, least in the areas that I'm occupying.

Speaker 2: 44:36

When I'm going to Germany and performing cabarets or performing at parties like Chin Chin, which is like this theater party where performances are kind of being burst out of the dance floor and you're kind of occupying the space in that way, it all feels always a little bit typically German avant-garde, if that makes sense, like we kind of read the rule book but then we discarded it. We're kind of like several steps forward. Sometimes, like in regards of drag community, it still feels very much like it has not entered the mainstream or the public conscious whatsoever. We're kind of doing things just in dingy bars but then in other ways it also feels way more ahead where, because of all the money and the support there's also slowly dwindling in germany because the right-wing government they know how to fuck us over, but there is still the support. So, for example, the times that I performed and produced in germany cabarets, it was in theaters and I was always kind of struck by this that I could be somewhere proper backstage instead of doing my makeup on top of a toilet, which also has obviously its benefits.

Speaker 2: 45:41

But the German scene still feels a little bit more like it's just about to find itself in regards of drag and what all those different things mean. That might be a little bit more established in the UK. Another jarring difference would be like a rules. I had a long phone call with a theater when I produced back there in February whether the balloons that I wanted to bring to the stage as decorations were fireproof, because we have rules around that in Germany. I was like nobody, ever, nobody ever questioned me about fucking balloons or confetti cannons. In the UK I was firing them into the ground, fireproof there, but in germany we had to have like a 20 minute zoom call around this.

Speaker 1: 46:20

Um, uh, true, true, true stereotypes it's interesting because it depends where you work. Some of our health and safety is crazy as well in the big theaters, and. But it's nice to hear about the two different themes because I just obviously we just don't look outside ourselves and I am a fan of drag race, but it is a version of it. It's not the reality. So it's nice to hear someone that's working in the different scenes and the benefit we obviously get from you doing that and here, and hopefully there's something from the uk that you're taking to germany at some point, oh, absolutely like I think, coming here into country by choice, an immigrant taking away the jobs I think I'm becoming one of the biggest advocates for the UK to describe it than eccentricity.

Speaker 2: 47:11

There is so much that people hear, the public but also the performers dare to do. That might feel way outside the box in other contexts and it's something that people belittle themselves here for or that they feel like people smile down upon them. But actually it's such a quality it's something that you cannot teach. That's why you have the unique comedy that translates all across different sectors, like katherine tate etc. Like you find all these like like bloody lily savage, like that is a certain kind of humor that you do not get elsewhere, that has a groundedness, yet the super campy translates to real life experiences.

Speaker 2: 47:53

But then there are also all those different pots of uniqueness, like whether doing drag here, where it feels in Liverpool, at least in this scene a little bit more punk, or then going all the way up to Edinburgh, where I was performing last year at the Fringe and hopefully going back to the Fringe this year A little teaser when it also feels different. Again, you have wacky performances, really artful performances. There's just so much here that, yeah, I think Germany can appreciate at minimum or even learn from. So my dream is at some point to take a few people from the UK, like my cherished performers, and just go into like a german cabaret context or vice versa, bring them here and then finally british british drag will learn how to read a spreadsheet and be organized.

Speaker 1: 48:46

thank you very much I feel like that's a brilliant and I was going to ask, ask, what would you like to do in terms of big visions? And that sounds really cool. Exchange work, of course, that sounds brilliant. It sounds natural.

Speaker 2: 49:00

Bring Erasmus back people. Yes, we're entering Europe, we're doing funding programs, exchange students, all of that I mean. Personally, I think I'd like to have my own kind of cabaret, where I can do this on a more regular basis, because nothing brings me more joy than finding someone and plopping them on the stage and say, here you go, you have your five minutes, and then creating a narrative around it. Like nothing brings me more joy than hosting. I do like my lip syncs as well, but because hosting is not just standing there with a microphone and kind of yapping for ages, like we're doing right now.

Speaker 2: 49:37

Um, it's kind of finding the narrative. If you're doing hosting, well, you're getting a cast of people together and then you think, right, well, it's the story that I can tell that links them all together, to give people a unique one and a half two hours where afterwards they feel they've changed and being able to maybe do this more consistently. With my vision, that is somewhere between 1920s cabaret, a little bit of jazz, loads of dirty jokes, things like that. So I'm trialing this this summer, but it can't be yet revealed I thought you were gonna.

Speaker 1: 50:13

I thought you were gonna give me an exclusive.

Speaker 2: 50:14

I'm so sorry we're not there yet, but it's very close to being revealed, Okay.

Speaker 1: 50:21

Well, you'll have to come back on and we'll have to do a whole different podcast around Is that an invitation?

Speaker 2: 50:26

Did it go that well, Of course? Of course Does it help that I showed my boobs.

Speaker 1: 50:33

I just wondered what advice would you give any and I'm not going to say young person, because I feel like we there's a lot about age which we just can dismiss. Someone that's craving to be a creative, that wants to be different, wants to play in a different space, do things differently, what would you say to them about pursuing what they may envision for themselves? Any tips or tricks?

Speaker 2: 50:57

yeah, I think we've talked about this before. I think creating your own space is the single best thing that I've done. Do my own events, um, and doing them really low key first, like you don't need all the bells and whistles and understanding all the parts of it. And inviting a thousand people, like just creating something and using the network that you have already around you whether it's just friends or neighbors or colleagues or whoever it is to kind of invite them into that space that you're creating and then just see what happens. I think having that doer attitude and building something really good, but then having an open mind about that as well. So inviting people into that space and saying this is what I'm doing, but not necessarily having the end product in mind, but thinking will this be enjoyable for me?

Speaker 2: 51:50

I suppose the joy aspect is really important in an increasing capitalist society where resources are more strained and we miss sometimes the joy aspect, like, yes, it is about creating a career, yes, we need to pay our bills, but creativity dies in those spaces. So if you're having the opportunity to keep your back free, with a mundane day job, for example, and be safe in that way and then create spaces somewhere, I think that is a really good way to experiment without the pressure, so to speak. Another tip is we don't need more drag artists. Please stay away. The stages are full. Fuck off. I love that. Yeah, don't't do it. I've done it all. Um, anyone who's listening, please hire me, and otherwise there are no new artists.

Speaker 1: 52:43

I'm fresh meat, hire me we're nearly at the end of this book. Some quickfire ones. What is the one skill you wish you had to help you? I knew you were going to get into that mindset.

Speaker 2: 53:00

The one skill that I don't have saying no to hairy men. I knew this was going to go off.

Speaker 1: 53:09

One skill that you don't have, that you would like to develop over the next few months or years to help evolve you as sev, but also this extraordinary queer artist manifestation, franz ganel I think I'm giving.

Speaker 2: 53:25

I'm giving the honest answer. I think, um, sewing would be probably a talent that I would need to acquire, just because it's fucking expensive. Hiring loads of people love commissioning people but also some other things I just need to do myself, so sewing would be nice. The less honest answer is not switching off when my accountant is talking to me. How are your taxes, people?

Speaker 1: 53:47

So the last couple of questions and I know you don't have any struggle about getting things off that gorgeous chest of yours Any myths, misconceptions or pet peeves that we've not covered that you'd like to clear up right now?

Speaker 2: 54:00

My one pet peeve is when I'm somewhere out in drag and I usually get really nice comments like people are really nice to me, but I get this question so often did you do your makeup yourself? Like bitch, what do you think? Am I made out of money that I'm sitting at home having somebody flying in to do that face on me? Like what kind of funding are we talking about? Like what? So once in a while, if you see a drag artist and it's not by the tchatchki, it's highly likely that they've done the fucking makeup themselves. Get on it.

Speaker 1: 54:34

So, in addition to not touching our drag artists, yes, we touch ourselves, Thank you.

Speaker 2: 54:39

They do their own bloody makeup.

Speaker 1: 54:43

The final opportunity, which I know you're not going to struggle on this one, I ask every guest to make a cultural confession so that you can share a secret about yourself that no one knows about, where something didn't quite happen, a guilty pleasure.

Speaker 2: 55:02

Nothing guilty about my pleasures. I knew this was going to be a fun conversation.

Speaker 1: 55:08

My cheekbones are like achy because I've been laughing. Come on, make a cultural confession. That's not going to get you into trouble, oh gosh instantly, the entire list is gone.

Speaker 2: 55:18

I think cultural confession is that the only musicals that I've seen are Moulin Rouge and Chicago, and that's it. My entire act is filled on cabaret. Fuck knows what's happening in this musical. I've only read the synopsis Jazz hands. I feel like I I ruined this now.

Speaker 1: 55:41

Wow, I feel very different about you. Thank, you.

Speaker 2: 55:43

I hope that happened. Um, yeah, so there we are. I. I will will treat myself to the proper thing that's happening in london and go down there and watch what the kids are talking about since the 70s. I suppose I guess I'm going to fucking do it. I just really have Sorry, I'm circling back to pet peeves here. I think I really have issues with a pretend German accent. There are so many bastards doing a pretend German accent. They're not good.

Speaker 1: 56:11

Do not say I think most of us do love. Most of us do Fair enough. Sev Franz Ganau. Do not say I think most of us do love. Most of us do fair enough. Sev franz ganel, you gorgeous thing. You thank you so much for being a guest. I really appreciate it. I know you've got to run off to go and be an extraordinary host for this evening's pink pony club and come into a venue near you soon, or online.

Speaker 2: 56:33

Yes, if you're not careful, I'm going to be near you very soon, thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 56:42

Thanks for listening to this episode of Before the Applause. Please do tell everyone about this podcast and stay connected with us across all the usual social media platforms by searching at Before Applause. If you've got any burning questions, want to share your own insights, want to recommend a guest or be one yourself, then we'd love to hear from you.