Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to this new episode of Before the Applause, with me your host, David Watson. In this episode I talk to Susie Henderson, a fierce community-driven leader and a shining example of values-led creative leadership. As creative director at one of the most distinctive cultural spaces in the UK Storyhouse in Chester Susie is helping rewrite the rules of what cultural spaces can be. Susie shares her unique journey through the creative industries, championing collaboration, community engagement and accessibility in arts and culture. From her early days at Contact Theatre Manchester to her current leadership role, she reflects on experiences, influences and the values that have shaped her path.

Speaker 1: 0:44

We dive into the realities of working in the sector, discussing the need for real living wages, the value of lived experience in workplace conversations and how organisations can balance social impact with commercial sustainability. Susie proves that meaningful engagement and business sense aren't opposites. They're part of the same story. Throughout our conversation, one thing thing is clear Susie doesn't just direct productions. She helps shape the stories we tell who gets to tell them and where they're heard. Because in Susie's world, stories just aren't performed, they're lived, shared and open wide for everyone. Grab a cup of something nice and join us as we discover more. Before the applause Susie Henderson, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:27

Hello, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:29

Oh, a pleasure, a pleasure. I know we were trying to do this for season one, but, diaries, I'm really happy that you're doing season two with me.

Speaker 2: 1:36

Yes, me too, me too.

Speaker 1: 1:38

I think this is going to be a good convo. I've known you for a short while now, which is really weird because it's been an actual number of years, but I'm chair of Storyhouse in Chester and you're the creative director there. It does feel quite a long time ago, doesn't it?

Speaker 2: 1:51

It probably is. It's probably getting on for three years. It's summertime is it.

Speaker 1: 1:56

God, it's flown by. Time is flying by all the time. It's creative industries. For you, right? There's always something going on.

Speaker 2: 2:02

Creative industries for you, right? There's always something going on.

Speaker 1: 2:04

Yeah, never stops, and I know you're busy, I know you've got stuff going on and I know you're about to take a holiday, which is very well deserved. But thank you for squeezing me in, and then I'll leave you alone, I promise.

Speaker 2: 2:16

No, I'm excited to do it. I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued for our chat.

Speaker 1: 2:21

Likewise. So I've gotten to see how you work up close in the last couple of years. I've got to know what you're passionate about and what makes you tick, things that you fight for and for me part of the reason why I wanted to have this conversation with you and this might feel really cringy for you but I think you're a different kind of cultural and creative leader. I think there's something special about you. I think you have a different approach. I think you're the new generation of creative leader. I wondered if you feel maybe you are different.

Speaker 2: 2:53

I mean, I think I do feel like I'm different, but I think that comes from a place of like imposter syndrome, rather than thinking, oh yes, I'm like a a different generation of kind of of leader. Yeah, I, I don't know. Yeah, I don't feel like I particularly fit into maybe some of the traditional roles and kind of ways that this, this job, has been done before. I think, particularly because I'm not a big fan of a singular artistic vision um held by one person, I can really believe that organisations that support communities need like a multitude of perspectives. So, although I am the creative director, I think, I hope, I believe that I'm a very collaborative kind of in that role and in that leadership role, because I have one lived experience, you have another, somebody else has another and I think in order to really create something that is accessible and speaks to everyone, we need to make sure that those voices are all kind of feeding in.

Speaker 1: 3:56

So I guess that's perhaps, yeah, where I feel like there's some differences yeah, and I think for me that's, you know, as I say, like observing and seeing how you work. It is that approach to going. Well, we don't need to hold that, what one person doesn't need to hold, all of that space, and how do we work in that way? So that's kind of where it's come from, my kind of perception of that. But even when you kick off projects or you have ideas, it's about where it starts and the way you articulate why and what the outcomes are going to be, rather than the end product, which I, which I think is different, and I've worked with lots of different creative people.

Speaker 1: 4:34

So that's why I think you're different and it's lovely to be able to talk to you about all of that and that's why I think you're intriguing thank you and I know there's lots of people interested in building a career in the space that you're in and you've had a brilliant journey as creative learning lead with multi-sensory was it?

Speaker 2: 4:58

multi-story multi-story.

Speaker 1: 5:00

You've been head of creative development at contactor in Manchester and, of course, now Creative Director at Storyhouse. I wanted to start by asking you if you could tell us what is a creative director, what does it do, what does it entail and what do you get out of it.

Speaker 2: 5:18

Yeah, good question. Question um a creative director, or my role as creative director is to bring together the artistic work of story house across its uh stages the cinema, the library, the work we do with communities, with children and young people and to ensure that we are really meeting the needs of our community, that we're listening to what they're telling us about what they want, what they need, that we're joining the dots. I think that we're making sure we're not missing opportunities. I think, especially in a multi-art form venue like Storyhouse, it's really important to make sure that none of the artistic disciplines are sitting in silo. So a lot of my role is making sure that we're making those connections through film, through literature, through theatre, through the work we're doing with communities, so that we're maximising the opportunities and maximising the opportunities for people to have an experience with us and to kind of navigate their way through the organisation in different ways. So it's, yeah, it's about holding all of that and bringing those things together, I think.

Speaker 1: 6:34

No, that's great, and one of the reasons why I asked that is because we've had lots of guests on this podcast which have the title Creative Director and it means different things to different areas. So we've had Dan Shipton, who's a creative director of mega stage shows for big artists touring the world. You're very different, but it's a strange one, because people hear that or see and think it's just one thing and Susie clearly does a very kind of focused area that. So that was a very good description, okay. Brownie brown brown brownie points thank you.

Speaker 2: 7:06

Thank you, I'm glad to know that I do know what my job is today.

Speaker 1: 7:10

Anyway, right, yeah, so I wanted to go back to the beginning. Yes, what about very, very young suzy is what I want to know about. And what was suzy into? Were you into the creative arts? What was your thing when you were very young?

Speaker 2: 7:25

I definitely was. I didn't do anything creative until I was. I didn't do anything outside of like home and school until I was in high school. But I definitely remember being in primary school and being like, oh, I'm going to be an actor or maybe a vet Two very different things and I am neither of those. But when I got into high school, my I think my mum was a bit sick of all my school reports, saying could talk less why is that a common thing with all of us like?

Speaker 2: 7:58

I know exactly very good, but she talks too much. She spotted that like a youth theatre was starting in my town. So I grew up in Tamworth, which is about 20 miles north of Birmingham, so town had like a local art centre at the time. Sadly it's not. It's not there anymore and there wasn't.

Speaker 2: 8:16

There wasn't loads going on, but two, as it happened, two Arden graduates from the drama school in Manchester had decided to set up a youth theatre and it was in the local paper when people used to get the local paper and that's how you knew everything was going on and it was really cheap. I think it was like a pound a week or something, which was quite important for my family, like I didn't have ballet lessons or dance lessons or any of those things because they just weren't really within the kind of price reach of my family, but the youth theatre definitely was. So my mum I think I might have started with like a summer school, like a summer activity, like week-long, put a show together or something, and I loved it and I got a real bug for it and so I started, started doing that and we made shows and we entered local drama festivals, which is where you take your show and other people have got their shows, and we entered local drama festivals, which is where you take your show and other people have got their shows, and it's great because you actually get to see lots of other people's work and you can win awards and things. Then I started to teach the younger ones. To be fair, looking back, I'm quite impressed because it was a Friday night and even when I started going out, I still went and did my youth theatre first, then got really quickly changed and then went out on a night out at like 15 16.

Speaker 2: 9:31

So I was pretty, I was pretty committed and they also had like an adult professional company that they ran as well, and so I got some opportunities to take shows to Edinburgh with them. Actually, we took a youth theatre show first and then, no, I went in the professional show first and then we took a youth theatre show. But I was in edinburgh at the festival when both my gcses and my a-level results came out. So my poor mum god love her who never actually collected any results of her own, had to go and get both my gcse and my a-level results from school with all the other kids in edinburgh, where I actually had totally stopped caring what was happening, because when you're in Edinburgh in a totally different bubble, aren't you?

Speaker 2: 10:07

and I only was interested in reviews and my mum would be like, but don't you care what you got no so I've never had any of those experiences of like going to collect my results and, yeah, this, this whole world opened up to me and I think going to Edinburgh, actually in particular, was really very transformational for me in terms of just going like meeting so many people, just seeing loads of shows. You got to see every show in your venue that you were on in. You could see it for free, so I literally watched everything that was on the whole. While I was there. I just went from one show to the next, the next, and that was in a time when it was pretty cheap to see stuff at Edinburgh. It's not like it is now, sadly. It was a few quid to see shows.

Speaker 2: 10:47

Yeah, I thought I wanted to be an actor, so I went to uni. I didn't audition for drama school because I'm old and back then drama schools you had to pay, you weren't eligible for any kind of government funding or support and I didn't even ask my mum and dad actually about drama school because I just knew it was not a possible thing and I didn't want them to feel a way of it. It just wasn't. There was no point having a conversation because it wasn't something that I believed was accessible to me. But it was possible to go and do a drama degree because I could get subsidy back in the day when you still got subsidy if your parents didn't earn it for a certain amount.

Speaker 2: 11:29

So that's what I did and I went to University of Bristol to do drama there and I chose that course because it was really you could elect to take quite a practical approach. So lots and lots of different like performance-based modules and there's a lot of autonomy really on how you selected. It was actually drama and film, but I didn't do film after the first year in the compulsory bit I was very much about performance. But even through that course I realized, probably in my like second year, that I didn't think acting was for me, that maybe like I wasn't a robust enough individual to deal with the kind of constant auditioning stuff. And actually again I realized what I was really passionate about was other people having access to arts and culture. So I did a couple of modules that were very much about street theater and community theater and kind of engaging people and kind of engaging people and kind of. My focus became much more about how do we ensure that everyone has access to arts and culture for me particularly theatre, especially at that time.

Speaker 2: 12:31

So I feel like that has sat with me for quite a long time yeah kind of idea that everybody deserves access and it shouldn't be only available to certain group of people, and I think I realised that at university as well.

Speaker 2: 12:42

Like, I picked Bristol very randomly it sounds terrible. I had a gap on my UCAS form and I was flicking through the list of where did drama and obviously B's quite near the top, bristol in, and I went for the audition. You had to go and audition and like do an interview, and um, it was beautifully sunny in Bristol and I was like oh yeah, it's pretty nice here, I'll come here. I hadn't realized that actually it's a university that a lot of privately educated people go to, and so it was my kind of first experience, really, of kind of spending being surrounded by people whose life experiences were quite different to mine and I think that just also further cemented, like this idea that there should be equity across opportunity in arts and culture and that shouldn't be be limited to people from particular types of backgrounds with particular types of access.

Speaker 2: 13:32

So, yeah, I guess it all sort of started there really.

Speaker 1: 13:34

Which is quite, quite an interesting journey to gig moment. Were the signs that you were interested in how it was created and produced, as opposed to just performing?

Speaker 2: 13:51

definitely so I, when I started teaching the younger ones, I started directing their shows, selecting what they were making worked with another still lifelong friend she still teaches at degree level actually so she and I worked together with those like under eights I think they were under eight, under tens. So, yes, I was. I was really interested in that kind of how do you select a text or create a piece. We did quite a lot of devised work as well. So, yes, all of those kind of processes yeah, I definitely was was really interested in those early on.

Speaker 1: 14:25

I know this is probably a tough question because it was a while ago, but is there anything from being part of that youth movement experience that still really resonates with you today as part of who you are and how you work?

Speaker 2: 14:39

the all, the all, the huge benefits that people get from participating in arts and culture that are not about making art, actually about developing friendships, about what I learned about the world. I think people that are part of youth theatres and that sort of thing often joke that, like you do all your growing up in there. But there's like a lot of there's a creativity, gives a lot of space to have quite open conversations about things like sexuality, people's perspectives on the world, have your view confronted by somebody else who's got a different life experience, and I think that they're often really safe spaces to kind of find out who you are as a person and not necessarily just what the environment you've grown up in, and to have some of that challenged a little bit. So I think those spaces are really important because of that.

Speaker 2: 15:27

And then I think the work that that the two artists that led that company made was always quite socio-political and I think that's informed a lot of my work and sort of stayed with me. So yeah, we weren't kind of doing stage school-y type work. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But that isn't the kind of background that I came from. I've always I've come from a place that's kind of making work, that is about something, and that's definitely stayed with me. It's both what I'm interested in watching and, quite often, what I'm interested in making as well.

Speaker 1: 16:00

Absolutely, and we'll come back to that. So you had this amazing journey. You got on to uni because you selected B.

Speaker 2: 16:08

No, I'm sure the university would be delighted to know that that was the reason I went and studied my degree.

Speaker 1: 16:14

It was meant to be. It was meant to be. So after you've done all that, you graduated. What was your first professional job in the creative industries?

Speaker 2: 16:26

professional job in the creative industries. So, um, I first worked for an organization called the public, which later split off and became multi-story, for there's a lot of information in the public domain. You can read about what happened to the public, which was in west bombridge, and it was like the perfect first job. So, with the organization had developed out of a community arts organisation from the 70s called Jubilee Arts. We were in West Bombridge in the black country, in a town that didn't have a theatre, a cinema, a library they might have had a library, didn't have a swimming pool that was a big thing that people were very upset about that lived there, didn't have a bookshop. So although they were in the process of developing a building which sadly didn't ever come to full fruition, all of the work that we did had to happen in community spaces and I think that was such a good starting point to learn about how you really listen to communities and hear what it is that they want and respond to what they want. So we did all sorts of projects in found spaces. We were working in a disused x-ray factory looking at live work spaces. We worked in community spaces. We did a whole project that looked at kind of places where magical things happen that nobody ever spots. So we put a horse in a classroom in a school once and honestly, we did all sorts of things. We created a film that was shot over the course of one night and then shown at the end of the night in like a nightclub.

Speaker 2: 17:52

But yes, I don't think I could have had any better kind of entry into the industry and it was quite hard in some ways because there were lots of things going on in, there were lots of needs that were not being met in in that area and art and culture wasn't everybody's priority, which was completely understandable. But you, I found myself in lots of conversations all the time about where money comes from that funds art and culture and how it. Actually I can't use that to build you a swimming pool or a car and you should have a swimming pool and you should have an art and cultural offer, or you should have a great adventure playground and an arts and culture offer and kind of. Yeah, felt like at 21, 22 to be having those, those conversations with people. I think is is a really good grounding and I think you know, sadly, that the world hasn't moved on as much as I hoped it would, and and those conversations still feel really relevant.

Speaker 1: 18:46

They're still happening right now, aren't they, if anything, even more?

Speaker 2: 18:50

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 18:51

Either, or it doesn't need to be either, or it should be both it should be both, and other people have both, so why shouldn't you?

Speaker 2: 18:56

in your area? You shouldn't be being forced to pick and also, ultimately, you can take this money and we can spend it on arts and culture. Otherwise, someone else will take the money and spend it on arts and culture in another place, because we can't repurpose it, because that's not how it works.

Speaker 2: 19:13

Yeah, it's the same conversation, or someone else is going to have it, you know, and that doesn't mean you shouldn't have all the other things as well, but it's not as simple, sadly, as being able to go well, actually, we won't do this creative project and you can have this other thing instead. It's. It's not how the money works, is it?

Speaker 1: 19:27

no, absolutely not. So you went from those roles, yeah, to contact, which is pretty iconic. I wondered, first of all for people that don't know which you should, what contact is and what it does and where it came from. Give us a bit of that and then talk to us about your role there.

Speaker 2: 19:46

So Contact is a venue in Manchester on Oxford Road. It's been around. It's actually been around for a really long time. It used to be the University Theatre in the 60s and 70s and then it was redeveloped in the late 90s as one of the early millennium projects, as a dedicated venue with a focus on young people, young people's leadership and kind of underheard and underrepresented stories, particularly from global majority artists and communities, and it was. It was really very I think it was one of a kind at the time. Really at that I wasn't there in the 90s, I was still at school, but at that time just so we're all really clear, I'm not loud At the time most theatres had what was on stage, was central to who they were as a venue, and then they had an education department that created work connected to but felt often very secondary.

Speaker 2: 20:44

And I think at that time Contact flipped that model on its head and it put the work with young people and communities in the middle and everything else that happened around. That spun off that. So it didn't mean it didn't have amazing work on its stages, because it very definitely did, but it just flipped. What was the kind of the way things were done at the time and John McGrath, who is now the Artistic Director and CEO of Factory International Aviva Studios, was brought in to run that venue, came from New York at the time to run that venue and was still there when I joined in 2007 as Head of Creative Development. I have no idea why they gave me that job because I was really, really not qualified to do it. I was like, well, do it. Um, I was like I was still well, I was still technically in the age range of the the young people that contact work with, because I wasn't yet 25, which was interesting to come in and lead a department that was kind of doing all that that work with young people. But it was, it was. It was incredible to be given that opportunity and to be given that opportunity to grow.

Speaker 2: 21:48

I feel like I joined at like an incredible point. There was such a great team of people. Obviously John was was the artistic director. We had John Morgan as the exec producer, who was most recently at the theatre's trust. We had Cheryl Martin who was leading the literary department at the time. He's now at Red Ladder.

Speaker 2: 22:08

It was just a really exciting group of people to be around and I do feel really privileged that I got to work with those people and learn from those people and I got to recruit a team. When I arrived, actually there were people on short-term contracts and I got to build that team to do that. That work with me and I was there for 15 years and we went on an incredible journey. When I started it was predominantly looking after the young people and kind of community work and then by the time I left I was looking after programming and producing as well, so that kind of whole creative development. We formed one department that um had all of those things in instead of having them as um silos, a little bit how I was talking at the start about how I work at Storyhouse. That kind of connectedness we created that.

Speaker 1: 22:58

I know you're joking about um why they gave you the job.

Speaker 1: 23:01

I'm really not but I'm just thinking now. But isn't a that the point and part of your purpose and your vision you're at is to give power away, and it's interesting that you got it straight up pretty quickly and something like that, and that's something that is still what you're trying to do right with your role at story house. That's what it's all about. So it might feel like they just gave you the job you should. Maybe whoever interviewed you should go and ask them like why, why did they give you the job?

Speaker 2: 23:30

yeah, no, I should. I mean, I think John and I have chatted a little bit about it as well. Yeah, I think I think you're right. I think they afforded me an opportunity that they and I said this when I left at that point in my life as still effectively a young person that then allowed me to give hundreds of opportunities to other young people for the next 15 years and that kind of that cyclical approach really, and you're right, that is something that I'm really passionate about is thinking about succession planning.

Speaker 2: 24:01

Who's not in the room?

Speaker 2: 24:02

How can we give access to people to be in spaces that they're, that they currently aren't, and not only access, but equity once they get into those spaces as well.

Speaker 2: 24:12

And so that, did you know, was a core part of the work that contacted and I did in my role there and, yeah, I think, is very embedded, hopefully, in my practice. So, and I think also, I guess you know, there are benefits for having someone who is living adjacent to the kind of lives that you're trying to connect with as well, and kind of the yeah, your awareness of popular culture and the kind of things I was interested in was pretty similar to the work that we were trying to connect, create and program and engage people with, and I was in lots of those social spaces which wasn't without its challenges, but that some of the people we were trying to engage with were as well. So I think it did did give me a certain amount of credibility, I guess, to an extent that I wasn't so disconnected that I was talking, didn't know what I was talking about but it's quite progressive.

Speaker 1: 25:02

For contact to do that, yeah, right, and so for me, you know, working in what I do, this whole hard to reach audiences pisses me off. Yeah, because they're not hard to reach the reality. You just got to allow them to be at the table and having someone like you, that is part. You were the audience. That's a really smart move. More people need to do that rather than just keep it's hard to reach. Well, it's not just get off your ass and get out there and bring someone from there to the table, so you're not putting stuff on people, you're representing what they do. You know that's. That's an incredible experience for you to have at such a young age and over that period of time I wondered what, what was the most joyous thing or the most rewarding and what was the most difficult thing in that time at contact, because it was such clearly a transformational journey for you and interesting circumstances. I wonder what, what those two things for you were like it was.

Speaker 2: 26:00

It was really transformational and I'm I think, yeah, I the things that I learned and I experienced. I just don't, I don't know if I could have done those things anywhere else. The the thing that was most joyful was a project that was in existence when I got there. It came out of the Commonwealth Games in 2002 that was held in Manchester and it was called Contact in the World and it was a festival that brought together young theatre makers from across the world and had this brilliant process where you'd have artist facilitators.

Speaker 2: 26:36

We would take applications from young theatre makers across the globe and we would pair up companies and they would have this exchange. And a lot of it wasn't online, because back when we started that project we weren't online in the same way we are now, but each month they'd have like a creative challenge and they would create content that they would share. So the first challenge was usually to send a box of um of things that had meaning to people within the company to the other company and at the end of this nine months usually exchange, each company would have made a new piece of work inspired by the exchange with their twin, and then we brought all of the young theater makers to the uk and we had a festival and the shows were shown as a double bill every evening with the pairs, with the twins, and then during the day would just be workshops being ran by the different companies, and we had companies from all over the world, from Palestine, from Iran, jamaica, america, australia, germany, like literally everywhere. Brazil, wow, america, australia, germany, like literally everywhere, brazil.

Speaker 1: 27:38

Wow.

Speaker 2: 27:39

In 2007,. We did it in 2008, sorry, in Liverpool during the Capital of Culture. So we took it out of Manchester, we came to Liverpool and ran it at Lipper and Hope Street. But I think that was just an unbeaten To be in that space, any of those spaces, with hundreds of young people from across the world who were passionate about what they do, sharing what they do, sharing their lives, sharing their experiences yeah, it's probably one of the most powerful experiences I've ever had, I think.

Speaker 2: 28:09

And sadly, it just became so difficult to fundraise and then so difficult to get young people from certain parts of the world into the UK that it just became unsustainable, like so much changed in that that period of time from when that program started to, kind of. I think the last festival we ran was probably about 2014, maybe um, it just felt like there was just this real shift and it it became really sad when you know young people weren't getting visas to be allowed into the uk and things like that, but not just for the young people that came, but also young people hosting those young people being proud of their city. You know we had loads of other young people that would be volunteers. You know everyone would stay in student halls together. I mean, it was exhausting and it wasn't. You know, you can imagine the management of that, can't you? All of those?

Speaker 2: 29:01

people in a space together for a whole week, eating together in halls.

Speaker 2: 29:06

But I know that those many of those young people and artists and adults as they are now are still in touch and are still collaborating and still sharing and it just that felt like that felt really special.

Speaker 2: 29:18

I think the challenges, the biggest challenges, were I think it was quite a challenge when I started being young, being taken seriously in some of the spaces that I was in. And then I think the challenge for places like contact is it's very difficult to have the same kind of. You're very reliant on trusts and foundations and kind of other forms of income because you exist to be accessible, which means you're keeping your tickets super cheap. You don't have in your audiences to do because the nature of the work wealthy philanthropists, the types of people that might become corporate sponsors you don't have the offer that you have somewhere like story house in terms of their kind of what they might get for those support you know for their support. So you are really reliant on people just really wanting to do good without necessarily getting any, any kickback of any kind like and any benefit other than feeling like really good about themselves. I think that's that.

Speaker 1: 30:21

That's a real challenge, in kind of like a leadership role in that sort of organization and you just mentioned about being young in in that space and, I suppose, being present and owning that and being taken seriously. I wondered what advice you might have for young people that want to step into those spaces, that are in those spaces now and maybe feeling a bit similar. You know it's always a thing about, oh, bring young people in, but sometimes you can. It can feel tokenistic. I just wondered, like what would you advise if there are young people wanting to be in those spaces, are in those spaces maybe slight imposter syndrome? What would you say to them?

Speaker 2: 31:04

you really got to believe in your, that your own lived experience is your, is you, is your superpower. You have experiences that other people in those spaces haven't got, might not be able to relate to, might have once had, but quite a long time ago. And I think what I love about now in a leadership role, still being in spaces with with young people we've got younger people as trustees on our board and is the conversations where they are able. I don't know if you remember, david, I think I think you were with us when we had this conversation about real living wages at board level and one of our trustees.

Speaker 2: 31:43

Who is a young person was able to talk about what it meant for them to work at minimum wage and what the realities were for their workplace, for their everyday and just.

Speaker 2: 31:54

It was such a powerful moment to have somebody in the space talking from their real lived experience, and it's not that the other people in that room were not sympathetic to that, but it was quite far removed at the point in their lives that they were. Then I think we all needed someone to tell us what it was really like in 2024 or whatever year it was. We had that conversation. So I think it is.

Speaker 2: 32:20

It is believe that you've got something really useful to bring, and I don't think you need to pretend to bring something else. I think you're enough. The experiences you've got, the knowledge you've got, are are the right thing to bring into that space with you, and there's lots of other things you'll learn from being in that space. But actually you're in there to share, to share your experiences and your opinion on things, and I think you know to speak up and maybe to find a, an ally in the room as well. If there's an opportunity, sometimes if you're on a board or something like that if you can find somebody who can become a buddy and hopefully that's something that is offered to you as part of those roles but if it's not another person in the space that can also create space for you, that can invite you into a conversation, perhaps if you are feeling a bit excluded or that you're maybe not getting the same opportunity, because I think it's on all of us in those spaces as well to create space for different voices to be heard.

Speaker 1: 33:18

Absolutely, absolutely and and I agree, it's a superpower, isn't it? And just lean into it. You don't need to know all the other stuff, just go for it, and that that's the value that you're bringing, and, with time, you'll be more confident about that is the thing that you offer. You've already mentioned your leadership role now, so creative director of story house. What this is is encompassing lots of different things under one role. As a creative director you are, you already mentioned, you do things in a different way, and there's then the dimension of being part of a leadership team, which is something very different. Yeah, I wondered, how do you, how do you juggle all of that when, obviously, your heart is all about connecting with people and creating opportunity? What is it like to have a role which is quite encompassing like that? You know I've done many of them so, but I want to hear from you how do you manage that and what's your journey like being with it?

Speaker 2: 34:12

I think that what's interesting is how you hold on to your values and the values of the organization whilst also sustaining the organization's kind of financial well-being and kind of ensure when we can't do anything if we don't continue to exist. So we have to be savvy and we have to make sure that we're maximizing our opportunities to earn income to ensure our sustainability as an organisation. But I think it's making sure that you're always aware, talking about where, where the kind of intersection of that and and our values and our strategy, and kind of just ensuring that we're not doing that at the kind of compromise of some of those things. And I truly believe that there there is a way for those things to happily coexist. And I think story house is a really good example of somewhere that you know earns the majority of its income, which is is fairly is pretty significant for a cultural organization, but not at the detriment of its commitment to its communities and its organizational values, and I think I think that's really important and I think I don't think we talk about that enough and I I've come a long way on this since being at Storyhouse, actually how I feel about this.

Speaker 2: 35:40

But I think I've been guilty and I think there is sometimes an assumption that to be really doing good work, charitable work, community work or things that are kind of socially motivated, you have to sort of be the poor relation, you have to accept that you're going to struggle financially. Be the poor relation, you have to accept that you're going to struggle financially. And I think there is a world where things can exist that allow you to be commercially successful but still committed to that work and I think actually there's a real opportunity in those things coexisting, because actually some of the more populist for want of better work, work that is financially that makes, makes you more money is actually some of the more accessible work that exists in the sector. So I think, yeah, I just think it's really interesting, and I've been on a real personal journey, I think, with how I feel about that and kind of how as well you can embed those kind of values into more populist work, you will actually reach more people.

Speaker 2: 36:43

So I think, coming from a background of making very socially engaged work but that sometimes only appealed to a smaller audience of people who, arguably, are already committed to the same thing you are, versus, for example, embedding those values and those stories into your pantomime that is then seen by thousands of people. I think for me, I've just done a big shift on where, the, where you can have the greatest impact, and I'm still, you can tell, I still can't fully articulate that, but I've been on a bit of a journey and I think there's room for both and I'm a big fan of both of those things. But I think there are ways that we can. Um, I don't think we need to see them as polarized things. I think you can be commercially successful and committed to your socially engaged principles, practice, access and all of those things. I don't think they have to be completely separate. I think I think they can be happy bedfellows.

Speaker 1: 37:41

I completely agree, and one of my things that I often say which it's weird when people repeat it back to me is commerciality comes through the creativity. It's not commercial. And then the creativity. And if we hold that when we're thinking about growing and develop, that means they can coexist and it means actually you can then be smart and interweave them. And I think this whole panic in the sector around god, we've got to make more money, people the reason why people getting scared because they think understandable, oh, when we talk about being more commercial and savvy and entrepreneur, is actually fundamentally changing who, what, the DNA of the company and that's not what it's about is it? It's being smart, it's about being an open mind. You know and it's really great that you're describing yourself as you're still trying to figure it out and articulate because that's what will make us successful as a sector, if we continue to be open-minded. And that's something which I often struggle with when I work with certain companies, or I know of them, is actually the very closed mind to the change or just accept we've got to do something different, right, that's, we have to do things different and be open-minded to it. So I think that's a really interesting way of thinking about how things can coexist together.

Speaker 1: 38:57

You've done a huge amount at storyhouse as well. I wonder if there's. I know this is gonna be hard. I hate these questions, but I'm I'm the host, so I get to ask them. Is there anything that really stands out for you as a, as a magical moment?

Speaker 2: 39:13

I think I think there's so many. I think somebody asked me in an interview last week or the week before what my favorite space is at story house and I think my favorite space is the public space with um. For anyone that doesn't know, uh, come and visit story house, but it's a magical building where the all the walls of the building aligned with our library, with our library books, so they're all the way throughout the building, and downstairs we have something called the kitchen, which is our kind of cafe restaurant. But it's also a public space that anyone can spend time in. So that space when, like, rhyme time is on, which we have four times a week, and there's loads of babies and parents and carers singing nursery type rhymes. Or when one of our community co-curated festivals is on, like kaleidoscope, which celebrates the learning disabled community, and we've got like a big brass band playing pop tunes and everyone's dancing in that space.

Speaker 2: 40:08

Or when we did actually when we did kinky boots, which we produced last year, and helen, our producer, had this amazing idea that when the show goes to milan, in for the sort of last 10 minutes of the show, we would build a catwalk in our atrium space, in our public space and we would bring the entire audience out and the whole of the end of the show would happen on that catwalk. Actually, that's probably my favourite moment to have suddenly, to suddenly make visible what is often invisible because it's in the theater and if you haven't bought a ticket, you don't ever get to see it to anyone. That just happened to be in that building twice a day when we did a matinee in an evening show and suddenly there would be all these people coming out in kinky boots doing a huge, big finale number with all the lights and sound out in that space. I think, yeah, I think that's probably one of my most magical moments, but also being in the outdoor theater in the park in the summer pretty special, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 41:07

which is, yeah, again, really special. And just watching, watching theater outside in the summer in the uk, hopefully in sunshine, but it's very sunny, I'm sure, this year. Yeah, so I think lots of spaces, but I think for me, the public spaces are often the spaces that I marvel at the most, because they feel so unique to who we are as a building and to what we do, and to see all the variety of people that spend so much time in our building over the course of a day. It's never you'll know this it's not busy in our building, but there's there's such a breadth of people in there, and I think there are so few spaces that see so many cross sections of community coexisting together and sharing space together that I think that's the thing that I just I'm not sure is replicated in very many other spaces.

Speaker 1: 41:55

No, I totally agree and it's interesting because it's so. For me, it's obvious why Storyhouse is part of your journey and you're doing that thing of working in a space where you create space for other voices and kind of connected to that which I know you're really deeply passionate about and you do and is not only do you create spaces, you create opportunities for firing writers and actors. What's your approach to creating opportunities and nurturing talent, because I know people like do a bit of artist development, but I feel like you're full in committed my focus, I guess is, is what it often is is like who isn't in the room?

Speaker 2: 42:34

who are we not naturally coming across in these spaces, and how might we create opportunities to give access and to nurture and grow those people? So we created SYC not long after I joined Richard Storyhouse Young Company, which is for 18 to 25 year olds. That is a free actor training program for young people who are facing barriers to accessing drama school. We've met so many amazing actors through that. We have a trainee actor program which, again, I can't take credit for that existed when I got there but I think it's really unique where we have paid roles in our professional productions for young actors, now for graduates of our young company. So in the park in the summer there'll be four trainee actors we are producing off the press.

Speaker 2: 43:25

We haven't announced this yet, but we're producing Macbeth in March 26th. There'll be another four trainee actors in that. So to really give paid professional opportunities that are going to enable those young people to get an agent, get their next professional credit. You know it's not, it's not tokenistic, it's not saying oh, come and shadow this or and it's not to say those opportunities aren't valuable, but it's going. We know you need to be paid to do this, otherwise we're going to start excluding people from this opportunity and we know you need a professional, but we also know that you're still developing.

Speaker 2: 43:59

So you probably need to do that in an environment where you've got people around you who are going to help support you into going into a professional rehearsal room, working with other professional actors, taking direction from a director and maybe overcoming some of the things that you've not quite yet figured out, because you haven't had the opportunity to have those experiences that we can kind of gently guide you through and and you know, have a little chat with you.

Speaker 2: 44:24

If you're struggling with something or if maybe we're getting a bit of feedback that the way you're in a space could could be slightly improved on and benefit the other people in that space, we're there to support you through that. So I think that that's like a really important part of that. And then I think we're really lucky that we've got a really large mid-scale space um, we've got 840 seats in our main auditorium and I think we've identified that for a lot of creatives it's really hard to make a leap from making small-scale studio work and getting an opportunity to do something at scale. There's a lot of conversation all the time in our industry about risk, what people perceive to be risk, and I don't think it is risk. But ultimately, unless somebody gives someone an opportunity, they're never going to get out of the small scale, are they?

Speaker 2: 45:13

and onto that stage yeah so we're really committed as well to kind of giving people those opportunities to write for that main space, to direct on that main space, because we can see your talent and your skills in the work you're making somewhere else and actually what we've got in-house is loads of knowledge about how to make shows for that space.

Speaker 2: 45:33

So if you've got great instincts and what you can do stuff at small scale, we support you to make that link leap because we have we have all the the knowledge and information that perhaps you haven't got yet but we can support you through that by going. Well, actually we know, because we make shows on this stage all the time, that we need to approach set design in this way or this is a particular challenge. So, using the, the knowledge we have to support somebody else to kind of make that leap, and then what we get to do is watch them go off and get millions of other big mid-scale and large-scale opportunities off the back of it, which is fantastic. So I think, identifying what our niche is, I guess, and identifying a gap and how we can support that gap. So I think that kind of leap from from small scale to large, mid-scale was one that we could just see was was a real challenge facing a lot of creatives and that we had an opportunity there. And it's not. It's not. It's not a risk in any way.

Speaker 2: 46:31

We've not found it to be a risk and it's actually really nice to go on those journeys with people and we're learning as well. And I think just to talk all the time about how, like, we're all learning from everything we do, like we don't know everything at Storyhouse, every time we do something we learn something. So when we're reviewing things and evaluating things, having very honest conversations with the creatives we've worked with about what works and what didn't, so that they are able to take that with them and for them to give us to that to us, and for us to be honest about what we've learned that we wouldn't do again as well. And I think that's the only way any of us are going to get better is if we can have that kind of honest dialogue and that honest kind of evaluation at the end of a process. Otherwise you're sort of setting up somebody to go and make the same, have the same issues in the next job. If you're not kind of up for having what might be a slightly difficult conversation, because everyone wants the end of a process to go.

Speaker 2: 47:22

It was all brilliant. Let's forget anything bad ever happened. Let's forget we had any challenges and let's just, you know, sail merrily off into the sunset, but actually I'm not sure that that's very helpful. It's not helpful for us not to have any of the feedback about what might have been challenging, about how we've worked with you, and I don't think it's helpful for you as a creative to not have have that feedback as well, because otherwise, how, how can you improve? And so I hope that we try and have quite an honest dialogue and in recognition that that there'll be things that we did that we could definitely do better next time, and we want to know as well, so that we can go into the next creative process with that learning absolutely, and there's always opportunities to learn and grow.

Speaker 1: 48:03

I know a lot of us in the sector and a lot of the podcast episodes I've done for season two. We could spend hours talking about why it's such a frustrating sector and there's a lack of funding, but something which I really like where you're going with this is actually. I can see how excited you are about the future and I wondered what are you excited about? The future for the creative industries?

Speaker 2: 48:28

I'm excited that we are starting to see it change in the kind of diversity and the representation we have of people making work, leading companies. There's people making work, leading companies. There's obviously more work to do there, but to see the success of shows coming out of the bush, for example recently, then transfer into the west end, I feel like I think I think things are changing and I think people can see that actually, again it comes up to this whole idea of risk, but that there are. There's work being made in lots of different spaces that is appreciated by lots of different audiences.

Speaker 2: 49:04

I'm excited in in our work at story house about how we're successfully kind of starting to produce work that is bringing audiences who theater hasn't been traditionally for them feel like producing gangs of new york last year in the Open Air Theatre and I think with Sherlock that we're doing this year, we're meeting new audiences who perhaps have been audiences for film before but haven't really been dipping their toe in the live theatre world, the live performance world, and I think, yeah, we're opening up live performance to new audiences and I think that's happening again across the sector.

Speaker 2: 49:39

I think I probably everyone's sick of me banging on about the ballet rambert peaky blinders, but it was such an interesting experience to be in an auditorium for a ballet or a contemporary dance show with so many heterosexual men.

Speaker 2: 49:53

I don't think I've ever had that experience before, but how fantastic to see, yeah, a different type of audience for a type of work that I don't think anyone would have imagined that those people would necessarily have chosen to buy tickets for in the past. I'm excited about how we're shaking up who we think work is for, what work we think suits what audiences, and I think yeah, I think people are taking I don't know. I think we've democratized how people access culture generally in terms of film and tv and streaming services and all of that sort of stuff, and I think that's maybe changing the way that people are making choices about what they see and where they see it, and hopefully we're encouraging some kind of confidence in coming into spaces that perhaps haven't been popular, popularized by those communities in the past yeah, and kind of a connected question which is relating to my point about gosh.

Speaker 1: 50:50

We always talk about the negative stuff and there's no funding and it's hard work. We're all still here. For anyone that is wanting to be in the creative industries or in any role, because it isn't just about performing, what would you say to encourage them to get into the creative industries and keep going, regardless of the crazy, stupid backdrop that we always have to deal with? Because it is exciting, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 51:14

It's really exciting and I think I feel really really lucky to have the job that I have and I feel really really lucky to work in the place I have. But I don't think many people get to love their jobs as much as we do and that's not to say that they don't come with challenges and we don't have bad days and all of those things. But in general, I love my job and I love the variety of it and I love the people I work with and I feel really privileged to be in really interesting conversations. I feel like working in the creative industries is like you learn about the world all the time. It's it's an opportunity to kind of have conversations or learn about things you never thought you would, and I just don't think that there's many careers that give you that kind of breadth of like.

Speaker 2: 52:01

Really, the creative industries is about learning about people in the world. That's really what's at the heart of it, isn't it? Telling people's stories, understanding people's stories, and I think if you're interested in that and I'm fascinated by people and their lives and their stories there is no better sector to be in, because you'll just constantly be like I can't even believe I need to google this today, or I'm trying to learn about what this thing is. You just every day you learn something new and I just think that that just gives you. For me, that's what life's about is is constantly the he's being curious and having the opportunity to to kind of explore things and find out things you didn't know before and hear a different perspective. So I think if you're interested in those things, then then this, this is definitely the industry for you, and I think be curious is probably the best advice going into it. I think I don't know many people working in this sector.

Speaker 2: 52:52

I don't know about you, david, that had a master plan of a career no, mine's all over the place exactly, but I think if you're curious and if you follow opportunities, yeah you will go on a wonderful adventure and you'll have some amazing experiences, and I think it's about not being closed down to possibilities or opportunities and and and when they come up, if they feel right, saying yes and being prepared to walk into the unknown to an extent and sort of see what happens. For me, that's a really exciting way to to be able to spend your working life, which we spend a lot of time doing.

Speaker 1: 53:30

Yeah, it's very, it's very fulfilling and having an impact on people's lives is really special and it's not transactional in the way that other things are, and that is why you know you can be an accountant in the creative industries. You could work in health and safety, you can work in technical, you can be a designer, you can be a chef right, it's such an amazing sector. It's one of the most successful that contributes a huge amount, so the third most contributing in the entire UK economy. It's pretty extraordinary. And talking about extraordinary, I know you've got big dreams. If I give you a blank check, oh gosh and I'm backing you up you could have anything you want. What's the dream project? Oh, she wouldn't normally ponder it if I did this in a board meeting. I mean, I feel like I've got about.

Speaker 2: 54:22

If you gave me a blank check, I could spend it on about 100 different things for me, or for story house, or for the for you for you what, what, what may be the one project that you'd really like to realize, and it's.

Speaker 1: 54:37

It's not about story house, it's about what you, creatively, would love. You know, I was thinking. The reason why I asked that is because the way you spoke about that original project.

Speaker 2: 54:46

Yeah, I would probably bring that back.

Speaker 1: 54:49

Well, you're hearing it here first folks. Maybe there's a grand tour coming up right.

Speaker 2: 54:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it is. I think I'm really. I haven't really spoken about in this episode because we just haven't talked about it, but the one of the other things I've been really, really lucky to do in my career is work quite a lot internationally. I did not travel as a child. We never. We, we never left.

Speaker 2: 55:12

Well, we went to Wales, so we just go to a different country. But I have been fortunate enough to travel as part of my job and I think there is nothing like the experiences especially as you're developing as a, as a young person or into adulthood in kind of having those opportunities to live and create and make work with people from other places, so something that was enabling that to happen for young people. I think it's needed now more than ever in a kind of post-Brexit society, in everything else we know that's going on in the world. I just think like something that allowed people to be creative together across boundaries, whatever those boundaries might be, and see themselves as a global citizen.

Speaker 1: 55:59

Oh, yeah, Don't do it when you're on holiday. I think you need to think about this. Obviously, I know you're busy and you've got a full-time job, but maybe it's something you should think about. I haven't got a blank check, unfortunately, but what I have got is a lot of support. I've got a lot of will and people will rally behind you to try and make that happen.

Speaker 1: 56:21

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Something along those lines would be amazing. Well, maybe it will, and we're getting near the end of the conversation, so I have the two final questions for you. So the first one is do you have any myths or misconceptions or pet peeves that you want to deal with right here, right now and clear up? Most people go how long have we got?

Speaker 2: 56:39

yeah, I know, I, I think I think the myth, which I understand why it exists, but that people worry about how they need to behave when they come into kind of especially theater spaces that they need to dress up that they're like I think if we could, if we could find a way of demystifying all of that so everyone knows like I mean, I'm always in my jeans.

Speaker 2: 56:59

Like you definitely don't need to dress up all of those things, I think that's something that is is frustrating. That is still a thing I know. I really understand why it is. And then I think I think the myth that talent is enough, regardless of the way that you behave and your approach to things and I think the thing that I talk to young actors about all the time is that you know, unless you're Judi Dench and I'm sure Judi Dench is a lovely woman and would never be be late or be rude actually it's it's those things that are going to get you work in the future.

Speaker 2: 57:37

Like you need to be on time, you need to be nice, pleasant person to to be in a space with. Otherwise it doesn't matter how talented you are. It's a very small sector people won't work with you again. Like people call each other all the time and go have you worked with this person? What were they? Like? Yes, I think sometimes people think just being really, really, really talented is enough, but actually, if you're really not nice to work with, people won't want to work with you, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 58:05

Because we'll have to spend a lot of time together in creative processes and it's just not nice to do that with somebody who is really difficult.

Speaker 1: 58:13

And that's. You know, there's a whole new episode in that around personal brand, which I'm sure I'll cover at some point, but actually it is about creating a brand and the person you are and the talent is part of that. It's only one part, and so I think that's a really, really good point and a great piece of advice and something which is probably I would say it's pretty more ingrained in the psyche of up and coming to, because they know what brand is. They're all about social media. So, remember, you're creating and living and breathing a brand. You're not creating a falsehood, it's a living, breathing thing, so it's a really I think that's a very, very good, uh, piece of advice there.

Speaker 1: 58:49

Last thing I ask every guest at the end of every episode to make a cultural confession, and it can be a little secret, a guilty pleasure, something someone doesn't know about you. I normally have to caveat with everybody is don't say anything's going to get you into trouble. I, I'm aware of one thing, but I'm going to wait for you to say give me the confession I really love really terrible reality television that's the one that I'm going to ask you about I see, I watch it all Real Housewives, Teen Mom, Love is Black.

Speaker 2: 59:25

I mean, there's nothing basically reality-based that I probably won't watch, which I think sometimes people are surprised at. I don't think that fits well with my brand, but it's true. Sometimes I just really need to decompress with something that isn't spectacularly well written and kind of cutting edge. I love all of that as well, but I've definitely got some time for some good old reality TV.

Speaker 1: 59:48

It's definitely the common denominator in people's confessions.

Speaker 2: 59:50

Is it Good?

Speaker 1: 59:52

And it's interesting because, a bit like this whole point of what you've raised about what you need to wear in a theatre, a bit like this whole point of what you've raised about what you need to wear in a theatre, I think everyone thinks creatives are really highbrow and I will sit there and watch a full length ballet. Absolutely not. I want to watch trash TV, essentially, or things that my brain don't have to work hard.

Speaker 1: 1:00:15

And weirdly, you can get the maddest inspiration from some of this stuff 100% 100% the confession which I was going to ask you about, well, which I've read I think it was an admission, not a confession. A was the reality TV, but in your biography it also says you're like the cocktail queen. I'm sure it does.

Speaker 2: 1:00:30

Oh, yeah, I do love a cocktail. I do love a cocktail, but actually probably my favourite drink is a vodka diet coke. I feel like I've been drinking it since I was about like 15 16 that if you want me to stay out on a night out, then don't let me drink anything except that, because I am quite a lightweight and I will end up having to go home early, as my colleagues will testify. Definitely don't let me drink wine, but yeah, I'm much better on hard liquor.

Speaker 1: 1:00:56

I think you just said something about the sector we work in and a healthy lifestyle, of course.

Speaker 2: 1:01:01

Yeah, of course. Of course. I've been for a run today, so it's fine. I've not had any liquor, it's only 12 20 though.

Speaker 1: 1:01:08

Susie, thank you so much for doing this. I know you're really busy, but it's been wonderful having a conversation. We could speak for hours, I know, and I'm sure we'll do this again in another way. But thank you again and hope you have a brilliant holiday, a well-deserved holiday, and I can't wait to see what you're up to.

Speaker 2: 1:01:24

Thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed it. It's been really good fun, thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:01:27

A pleasure. Thanks for listening to this episode of Before the Applause. Please do tell everyone about this podcast and stay connected with us across all the usual social media platforms by searching at before applause. If you've got any burning questions, want to share your own insights, want to recommend a guest or be one yourself, then we'd love to hear from you. You can direct