Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to this new episode of Before the Applause with me your host, david Watson. In this episode, I talk to Nikki Halifax, a trailblazing creative and artistic director, executive producer and consultant behind some of the world's most ambitious and emotionally resonant cultural experiences From the Great Festival of Creativity to whole UK city of culture, from London 2012 to Commonwealth Games, film premieres and everything in between. Nikki's work blends spectacle with soul. We talk about her journey from inquisitive art and design student to lecturer and how an unexpected opportunity set her on a path to become one of the UK's most respected female creative producers and cultural leaders.

Speaker 1: 0:46

Nikki stands the alarm for the arts, calling for greater representation, deeper engagement and inviting people of all walks of life to step into the most exciting and inclusive creative industry in the world. Whether it's shaping the sector as a career, making your voice heard as a community member or simply showing up as an audience member, there's a place for everyone. Voice heard as a community member or simply showing up as an audience member there's a place for everyone. She shares her thoughts on choosing the right projects, the joy of creating unforgettable experiences, the value of genuine community engagement and the ongoing challenges faced by women in the industry. Above all, nikki champions the power of creativity to educate, connect and inspire. Grab a cup of something nice and join us as we discover more.

Speaker 1: 1:26

Before the applause Nikki Halifax, welcome to the show. Hello, hi, I'm glad you technically could get in. I'm technically in it. I've known you for a while now. We've had many discussions about technology and for listeners listeners it took about 20 minutes for her to get into this, but we got there in the end. So thank you very much for making the time it's because I'm used to being the host.

Speaker 2: 1:51

I knew you would say something like that.

Speaker 1: 1:55

So you're a woman of many talents, with such a wide range in an interesting career, so I thought you'd be a really great guest on the show, and particularly because you're the epitome of what Before the Applause is. It's about how we come together and create and collaborate and make these moments. You are a producer, an artistic director, a creative director quite an interesting area that lots of people want to get into. I feel like it's going to be a really juicy conversation and hopefully those people that are interested in this type of role can glean some really good information from what we talk about and your tips and tricks.

Speaker 1: 2:30

So we've known each other for a while please don't say how many years I know I've had other similar guests that have worked with us on that said project and I'm just like I feel very old.

Speaker 1: 2:41

But we both came across each other in London for the Olympic ceremonies and closed ceremonies and I remember coming in for my first day and this redhead was dashing up and down three miles corridor and I was like, oh, I wonder who she is.

Speaker 1: 2:57

And then I was trying to, when I was preparing for this, I was trying to think of when we first met properly and I think there's two moments where we kind of connected one where I was standing outside Three Mills chatting to Martin Green and then you rushed over and was like, martin, I need to speak to you about something. And then in Three Mills, which is a really famous studio in East London where we were rehearsing and our team were based, I think we met at the little cafe bar having a coffee. Maybe at some point that was my memory of you, but it's an extraordinary thing to think about what was achieved and what we did during that moment. I just wondered I know people talk about it, but do you reflect on 2012 and what do you think about it now? Do you give yourself space to reflect on that moment?

Speaker 2: 3:47

yeah, I mean it. It was all a bit of a blur at the time and, as you know, um, I was doing creative direction for two lots of ceremonies, so one for the team welcome ceremonies, of which there are 300 ish, and one for the medal ceremonies, of which there are over 800. And literally I don't think for six months I had longer than four hours sleep a night and I walked at least 27 miles a day during the Olympics and Paralympic Games and it was such good fun and I had such an amazing team and we had 25 producers and coordinators. We had kind of like managers, and then I also had a technical director and we had a real laugh. But we had over 800 volunteers as well and the.

Speaker 2: 4:42

I guess the importance for me was making sure those volunteers I learned something about the industry and were professional in the way they did it, because at the end of the day, we really wanted the. You know, we really wanted the athletes to be the center of attention, but be that they had some fun as well. So I think kind of we managed. We managed that by hook or by crook, we managed it and everyone seemed to have a really, really good time and I just remember kind of getting to the end of it going oh, thank god for that, right, I'm not thinking about it for at least six months and didn't actually took, you know, took time off and deliberately would go nowhere where I had to think about flags, medals, you know kind of anything in relation to it. But looking back now I think it was I learned a lot about me and I learned a lot of how you have to let go. You can't do it all yourself and I think out of everything, that's the biggest lesson I learned and I wasn't the only one that learned that, I know I wasn't, but it was one of those events. So once that juggernaut left the building it was going to, you couldn't stop it on your way, you just had to go with it or jump to it and we all went with it.

Speaker 1: 5:59

Well, because we were told it was basically they're never going to change the date. This is happening. Basically, get your shit together and we're going to be going. It's a billion people. Yeah, I was like, oh really, is it that many people? You just kind of stopped it, but it was.

Speaker 1: 6:14

I always describe it for me, that experience. Obviously I love what I did, but the extraordinary talent that was brought together for those ceremonies and that was basically my big first exposure beyond the big venues that I've worked at, where I got to see you, I never knew what went into producing medal ceremonies or even making the medals, the flag stuff it was and everybody was. So I know we were under pressure, but I really felt everyone was really generous with their time to share what they were doing and, I suppose, give their insight. And I definitely came away a richer, more experienced person from that and I feel like that's why I kind of like try and do that now, because I know you now and you're very generous with your time and sharing insights is it was that? Do you feel like that's what came from that?

Speaker 2: 7:04

absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, I'm still in contact with some of the people that you know, kind of like worked with me on that and you know, and also kind of like subsequently. You know people that I've worked with in the past and I, as I've always said, my, my door's always open and I don't care if it's the middle of the night. I'd rather you, if you're working with me on a project, I'd rather you rang me and we shared the challenge, rather than someone stay up all night, and there's no such thing as a stupid question or statement, because you know we've all made them. Oh yeah, oh yeah and it's. And also, don't run before you can walk. And I think now that's probably the biggest, if you like, kind of tip that anyone can give any producer that then wants to go into exec producer or kind of like creative director is like earn your stripes as one and then move up, because if you move up too quickly, it can become overwhelming all of a sudden.

Speaker 2: 8:06

It's not what you know, it's what you don't know yeah and unless you've got some experience to kind of fall back on, that's really, that's really tough. And also remember that ultimately, as the executive producer or producer, you are the person responsible. So if something happens, at the end of the day the buck stops with you. And so don't, don't be in too much of a hurry and enjoy the journey, because you know I did, if you like, kind of 10 years of kind of like corporate, kind of like creative direction and producing and then moved into the kind of cultural sector and thought, oh wow, this is a block, I can say what I want and do what I want, I can really play. But then had you know some time to really kind of reflect and kind of hone skills that you never knew you'd need, like negotiation skills and things like that yeah and also learning that when someone something goes wrong, that's okay too.

Speaker 2: 9:09

You learn more from your mistakes than you ever do your successes. And, boy, if I did some mistakes, I mean they've been some humdingers, but um, it's been really good fun along the way and I think kind of the Olympics was one of those things where I'd say never again, but, yeah, loved it yeah, I say that, the only caveat being, if we ever got it back here and I was, I feel, energized enough, I would do it again yeah, teamwork and ceremonies of medal circles.

Speaker 1: 9:39

Again, I'd do opening or closing, because that was um it's in one venue yeah, oh god yeah and and I agree with you, some of you know I have lots of friends now in my life and acquaintances and colleagues and actually collaborators from lots of jobs, but actually the majority of them, when I was thinking about it, like you and all others, actually come from 2012, which is actually really special. So the bulk of my collaborators and suppose, suppose I don't use, I don't really like the word mentors, but people I seek advice from come from that gig we did, which is really special.

Speaker 2: 10:12

It's a shared experience, isn't it as well? And we were all doing like really long hours at a really high level, knowing that not just the country but the world was looking. But there's something very special about doing it for your country.

Speaker 1: 10:29

Oh yeah, it feels good. It felt really important.

Speaker 2: 10:32

And then the other thing that I was really mindful. As I said before, like the athletes, you were going to be in the athletes memory forever, so it was about them. It wasn't about TV, it wasn't about anything else and actually my role, if you like, during delivery was just making sure those athletes continued to be the center of attention and no one rushed them however much they wanted. You know tv deadlines and things like that. It was like no, we need to give the athletes time yeah, really absorb it.

Speaker 1: 11:06

It's a. It's a moment in history and for them and we and it would like you say it will stay forever. So you're currently festival director for Stockton, darlington Railway 200, but previous to that, you had some pretty cool roles so project director at New Substance, an amazing like multidisciplinary studio in Leeds. You've been exec producer for Waltham Forest, london Borough of Culture. You've been involved as a producer for Birmingham Commonwealth Games handover ceremony. Project director for NHS Bristol, supervising producer for Commonwealth Games in 2018, exec producer for Hull City of Culture, where we worked again together.

Speaker 1: 11:42

You've done event director, artistic director, exec producer, freelance and done some amazing things independently of Culture, where we worked again together. You've done event director, artistic director, exec producer, freelance and done some amazing things independently. You've produced events like the Bond VIP film launch. Head of programme for Q. You've done it all. Essentially, I feel like I couldn't do you justice in what you do, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to maybe summarize what do you do now? How would you describe it to someone if they asked you what? What is your role for yourself?

Speaker 2: 12:12

Yeah. So I guess I create vision and I create direction, which a team I hope feel part of and can then kind of like take on and embrace as their own and kind of develop facets of it. I'm quite a strategic thinker, I would sort of say, and I know artistically because I come from an art background. I know what I like artistically and so it makes it like artistically and so it makes it sometimes easier to actually say, as the artistic director, right, here's the kind of strategy. Now what do we think? And actually pull everyone in, because there is no one knows everything.

Speaker 2: 12:57

So, you know, it's also about making sure that you're thinking about, kind of like the visitor experience, and so I will very much kind of, for instance, in this role now that I'm in, I've kind of done the artistic program, we've created it, we've got a core, and now it's about I'm stepping back and looking at what's that? You know, what's that audience journey? How can we make that better? Is there something that we're missing? Is there something that we're missing? Is there something that we can bring in that will add so much worth that it's actually worth going back to the board and actually say, look, you know, we want to use some of the contingency for this.

Speaker 2: 13:36

So I think that's what you know, kind of that's what I do in a nutshell and then, with a producer hat on, I understand my way around budgets. So that helps from an artistic director perspective, because when I put a program together, if we've got a sum of money, I know how much effectively it will cost. I mean, you know, not to the pound, obviously, but it means that I won't ever put forward something that we really can't afford or undersell something where we could have gone a lot higher. Yeah, no, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 14:10

And I remember us running around many evenings and you articulated to me, david, the visitor experience, how do we connect it? This is the idea, and, whether that is with wayfinding, it's about flow. You know, and actually that's a really important thing, about who are we creating great art experiences for, and sometimes it can get lost. So, again, that's another tip if you're in that producing space that Nikki has articulated like, be open-minded and look to connect those other bits because ultimately it's about what experience and memory are we creating for the visitors?

Speaker 2: 14:45

I think it's for the visitors and also for the artists. At the end of the day I would never ask an artist to alter their work and if I'm commissioning artists, that's sacrosanct to me and I would never ask them to share the ip unless of course you're in the olympics you have to. But I think kind of that audience journey because at the end of the day you are inspiring the next generation and I always I said on Sea Monster, where we did that for New Substance, if we get five kids, come onto that oil rig, stand in the middle of it and say oh, I want some of this, this, we've done our job.

Speaker 2: 15:28

Yeah, you know that's. It's not about numbers, it's not about money, it's not about budget, it's have you inspired someone? And we again with this project with memory of a? A lot simpler, but it's a little peg doll project and I have got rid of 22,000 of them being decorated all around the country, and some in Japan, some in America, some went to Sierra Leone, and it's just paint a representation of you or your family, put a tag around its neck and write the memory of a journey. I couldn't in my wildest dreams imagine that being such a huge success, but we can't keep up with the demand on it there was something like that in hall, wasn't there?

Speaker 1: 16:16

well, I'm not sure. Was it a boat project where people made paper boats and it went wild?

Speaker 2: 16:19

yeah we did, we did, but we did paper boats, but a lot of those sank. So that's why we've done peg dolls this time. But I remember that going out we were like, oh, a few people engaged and there were hundreds and hundreds and poor me and that couple of the kind of the lovely kind of team that we had were sitting there kind of trying to make them for waterproof. It's so insane.

Speaker 1: 16:49

And one thing that I just wanted to kind of pick up as a tip for anyone that's wanting to create work in the industries or looking for funding In general I think sometimes there's a misunderstanding about when you're doing funding applications etc. Etc. That it's all about the numbers. So, as Nikki says, it's about that intrinsic idea of the art and actually it's about the impact it has on people's lives.

Speaker 1: 17:11

Of course, numbers are important, but sometimes you know some of the feedback I've read for the people's application, actually the impact is not there and they're elevating the numbers and actually, for example, arts Council, yes, they want numbers, but actually they want the quality of engagement. So that's a really good tip that Nikki talks about is really holding on to that high quality artist experience, the visitor, the, the group that you're having an impact on, and if it is five or ten people, that is an extraordinary experience that is as valid as 10,000 people will experience something. And I get lots of questions about fundraising. This is something that I talk about time and time again is it's not always about lots of bums on seats all the time. It's that quality of experience.

Speaker 2: 17:57

No, it's not. And I think kind of the other thing is, you know you've got to be situated in the community in which you are kind of creating, for there are too many artistic directors and creative directors that think I can do that from London, or I can do that from Manchester or I can do it from Glasgow. You can't, because until you know the community that you're kind of creating something. For how do you know? You know we I didn't come to this. You know S&DR thinking, oh, I'm going to do a peg doll project. I believe me, I wouldn't have done.

Speaker 2: 18:34

I spoke to, you know, community members and refugee groups and young producers and artists, and just you know care homes, for example, and just sort of said. So you know, are you interested in poetry? And they're no. The one thing that we're really sure that we want to get out of this is people's stories and memory, because, too, you know, too much has been lost through, you know, through archiving, which I could go on about forever and a day, because there was no women archived properly up until, kind of well, up until the 80s, let's be honest. And you know, and that's when kind of, if you like, the glass ceiling kind of smashed or cracked a little bit. So we said, okay, well we'll, we'll find a project around that. And then I woke up at two o'clock in the morning. I know a peg doll project. This is the life of a producer of creative people.

Speaker 1: 19:31

This is what happens. You're having a lovely sleep, normally four hours, and then you wake up in a panic at 2am because you had the best idea or you've got a seed of an idea. That's normally how it works and, being in the location, you're absolutely right and I you know when we're in Hull. I definitely loved being in Hull and exploring what people of Hull wanted and how their stories. You know, it's not about us telling them how to or what to tell. What our skill set is is about how can we add magic and about presentation of their story and there's real talent in those communities that you wouldn't know unless you are there.

Speaker 2: 20:09

So you know poets and poetry is massive in the North East and well, north in general actually, I think, far more than kind of like the South, and there's some extraordinary poets that kind of are local, that aren't known, that you know sit there and do their thing, or or kind of artisan makers yeah and you know, and kind of like pottery you know people that are really good with pottery and I know kind of there's a massive push at the moment for those craft-based artistic projects to have some space and have their own kind of like you know, kind of moment in the sun, if you like.

Speaker 2: 20:50

And you know there's some extraordinary people around and unless you actually live here and kind of like start looking for something yourself as a creative person I was looking for a drawing class and just happened to come across all of these people and then it was kind of like okay, and then they introduced me to someone, and then they introduced you to someone, and then the libraries introduced you to someone. Because that's the other thing. Libraries up in the North East are extraordinary. They're massive, they're pillars of the community. They do really amazing work. Kind of don't get any, you know, kind of highlighted. You know not highlighted necessarily for it, but actually are really important and people will go into libraries that won't necessarily go into big museums or galleries. So it quite often is an entry point and so that's your other thing.

Speaker 1: 21:38

If you're doing a program, think about your entry points yeah, ie, not necessarily the desk, the end destination, but the starting point. You know, I always describe it when I'm talking about projects, so our home and audiences, I don't mind if you come through the chimney, the back door, the garage, as long as we can find that way in and being open-minded and you know, I think but you know you're talking about location be open-minded to be surprised and delighted by different things. You know, I was looking at the Bradford 2025 program. You know, and again back to your point, like the extraordinary, like pockets of talent, you know makers and poets and singers. It's so cool and I think, I think that's what we really, you know, I suppose we should celebrate more and also embrace more in the north. More so, I would say, is that you know that part of amazing, extraordinary talent, and I just kind of want to give you the opportunity as well to briefly tell us about what S&DR 200 is and your role now. So what is it, nikki? What are you dreaming of?

Speaker 2: 22:45

So S&DR 200 is for the 200th anniversary of the first railway journey for passengers, and so it was the very first journey. We wouldn't have the world in which we live now without that journey because actually it changed communication, it changed the fact that we could get to work. It meant suddenly we could have tourism and we could go on holidays, and, and so it really was an extraordinary moment that on the 27th of September, a 26 mile journey, going at 15 miles an hour, in a machine that everyone thought was well, that landowners thought was described as a fire spewing smoke spewing monstrosity of a machine, you know kind of. You know made the world in which we live and it spread so quickly afterwards. So we're nailing, if you like, our sail to the mast and saying we were the first move over liverpool, manchester, I know you like, you know you were the first into town travel. You know this was very much kind of the for that first person's journey, and I think we're doing a nine month festival that not only tells that story and celebrates that but importantly, in the second half flips into the future and looks at stem and steam and also, you know what, what do we need the different kind of like people to come to the table with, because, at the end of the day, smdr was a group of men essentially sitting around a table to solve a challenge, and that challenge being they needed to get goods and people moving faster across the North East to get it out. It fuelled the second half of the Industrial Revolution. It was that successful. Everything that came out of Stockton for the first five years kind of went to London and then further afield from London.

Speaker 2: 24:51

So if we've done it before, we can do it again.

Speaker 2: 24:53

And then we've got more challenges now than we've ever had before with climate change and with attitudes and with the way we communicate again, and it's learning that communication again I think is really important with the birth, with the way we communicate again, and it's learning that communication again I think is really important with the birth of the internet.

Speaker 2: 25:09

And so it's about kind of like saying to young people you can, you know, we know that there are big challenges, but if we all think outside the box and we work together and we don't hide behind this really weird thing that we've suddenly become, which is don't copy my homework, kind weird thing that we've suddenly become, which is don't copy my homework kind of thing and kind of like covering it up and we actually truly work together. We've got a better chance of kind of finding that you know kind of like the next revolution which needs to be green. Then let's face it, culture has a role to play in that, because it's telling, it's, it's. I'm using culture as the tool to tell those stories and to kind of like bring some of those stories out it's very exciting and if people are wondering what is stem and steam?

Speaker 1: 25:52

so it's science, technology, engineering, arts and maths. So also like just it, we spew it because it's the vocab um, but essentially it's about using those different areas to create, collaborate, so that that's what that means yeah, it's like.

Speaker 2: 26:10

You know, there's a big thing between it seemed to be for a while between science and art, and oh you know it's so different. But actually it's not that different it's. The methodology is exactly the same. Yeah, it's about questioning, challenging, setting up an experiment and having a result. And you know, and in the V&A, you can go into the V&A and on one side you've got a whole row of scientists and on the other side you've got a whole row of artists. So it's not that different.

Speaker 1: 26:40

And I think someone came up with it Right, that different no, and I think someone, someone came up with it right. And then almost you know, so often you will see stem ie removing the a, which is really irritating. But obviously we inject that and actually we want creative solutions to science and technology and engineering and maths and the whole round thing. So it's a really exciting project. I will make sure I link in the transcript and description a link to your website so people can find out more. I wanted to go back a little bit, nikki, so I know I knew you'd be like oh dear little Nikki, was little Nikki always into the creative industries? What was your thing when you were younger, before you went to secondary school?

Speaker 2: 27:21

yeah, I mean I had. I was really into dance so I was obsessed with gymnastics and dance and drawing and so those were my obsessions. I had my first tantrum at three because I couldn't draw a foot you know that's going to be the clip in the podcast um and so, yes, I think it's, it's, it's, you know it's an overused word, but it's in my DNA.

Speaker 2: 27:53

It's something I've always been, I've always been interested in. I couldn't, I couldn't do a nine to five job. I don't think. And whilst we're all become workaholics or accused of being workaholics kind of, within the industry and you do need to take your breaks as well, something I've learned this year but it's something I love and it's and it's and it's not a job, it's, you know, it is something I love.

Speaker 1: 28:21

So you went on to study at John Moores University in Liverpool, and you did. Was it fine art?

Speaker 2: 28:28

Fine art and printed textiles. So I did kind of like almost like a kind of split degree and, yeah, had a wane of a time. In fact wouldn't have moved away from Liverpool had I found a job there. But in the 90s it wasn't, you know, it hadn't gone through its revolution. Shall we say that the, I think the European city of culture really changed its DNA yeah and you know it's always been an amazing city with amazing people.

Speaker 2: 28:58

But now it's got a, you know, forward thinking kind of outlook rather than a detrimental one, and it's self-deprived detrimental. Do you know what I mean? That's, you know, but it always took the mickey out of itself and you know, and the yeah, it was extraordinary, um, had a fantastic time. Don't remember some of it, but I would expect that of course.

Speaker 1: 29:25

So from that, how did you so? I suppose dual question what was your first job in the creative industries? And was that in events producing, because obviously specialized in fine art and print? So what tell me about it? What, what did you do?

Speaker 2: 29:40

I got offered believe it or not. I was kind of, I was what 23, 24 and got offered a lecturing job at the southeast college of art as a fashion illustrator. I, like you well, I haven't done fashion for years, but I didn't want to tell them that because I needed to pay off my student loan and drawing and then history of art. So I did that and then went in and actually ended up being kind of like head of fashion and textiles there for a year or so and I have to say some of my students were older than me, have to say, some of my students were older than me.

Speaker 2: 30:26

But then from there, you know, was doing work at Ravensbourne, was doing work at Uxbridge as well, and then someone asked me whether I was interested in doing some really large canvases as a set for 25 years of Whitbread Book Awards, believe it or not? And uh, I said, oh, yeah, that'll be fun. So we did these. I did these 20 meter by kind of like five meter canvases, four of them, which we painted and we then projected on. Well, I say projected, it was like literally kind of slide projections. Oh, hp, you know the ones that you know that clicked that. Have you got the wheel. Yeah, the producer of that actually said to me look, I think you could do really well in this industry, do you?

Speaker 2: 31:14

fancy kind of like you know, coming and doing a bit of an assistant producer role for a bit and then didn't look back wow left teaching, earned my stripes with kind of like Jack Morton and and a few um and Carabina, which was turned into Jack Morton, and then went to a company called Bang, which was a kind of like creative agency that did a lot of kind of worldwide kind of like PR launches, and then got the knock on the door with someone saying would you like to open the O2? Yes please, yeah, so um went and did that and then became their director of events and special projects it's quite an interesting little journey it was.

Speaker 2: 32:00

It's a very it's a very strange journey. But then I don't know many people in this industry, because there weren't such things as event industry degrees and masters, and so everyone either did languages, history or art in in the industry of my age group, I would say, and so we all come at things from a very different kind of like perspective and I think that works, because we weren't coming at it from it's an event, it's got to be this, it's got to be that. We were just like, yay, let's play see what happens and you know, and that worked for that time.

Speaker 1: 32:37

Now you know, health and safety has changed and all sorts have changed, and so you know, and you've now got kind of you know, really great courses that you can kind of like go on, but I still think there is an element of go and play yeah, absolutely, and, to be fair, I don't really know anyone that's taking a traditional route in like producing roles or what I do and you know, and I think that goes back to mopping up the experiences and skills and it shapes you into something and I suppose, as a producer or creator, there is that permission to create and play and that's how you develop you're a, you're an ex-dancer, you know you there's.

Speaker 2: 33:20

There's certain things that you decide early on. You either want to do it or you don't. I decided I didn't want to sell my art, which is slightly problematic when you're an artist.

Speaker 1: 33:34

You're like nope.

Speaker 2: 33:36

Because it felt like I was selling my soul. So it was kind of like well, what can I do then? That means that I can still do art and not sell it. And so I, you know, I still practice art, but I don't. I haven't sold anything and I never will. I feel sorry for the person that's got to empty out my um garage when I am not doing that, do not put me in there.

Speaker 1: 34:04

That's an extraordinary kind of description of kind of finding your way and learning the skills. But I also know obviously you've done a lot more since then and you've worked internationally. I wondered what working internationally in this industry generally is like, because I know a lot of people are really like inspired by this. I suppose I know it's a bit of a contradiction at the moment, because what's going on, but actually the creative industries do does span continents and borders and it's a great attractive opportunity.

Speaker 2: 34:30

I just wonder what your experience is working in different countries and with different collaborators yeah, I mean, I've never had a bad experience working abroad, and you know that's quite astounding. Yeah, I've worked in the middle east, never had any problem being a woman in the middle east, contrary to kind of like popular beliefs. In fact, I felt more listened to sometimes than I do in this country, and I think it's because I've I'd earned my stripes and so I you know I wasn't saying anything that I wasn't sure about, and I knew that there was different ways that you could skin a cat. If you like, try not to skin cats. You know there are different ways to say things without being kind of like confrontational and aggressive. And then there are other times where you have to be confrontational and just say no, but that doesn't have to be done in a way that's aggressive, it can just be.

Speaker 2: 35:27

Look, I really don't think that's a good idea because so I've had, you know I've had a really great time, um, kind of working abroad and I've really enjoyed it. And you know we're the best in the world. We started this industry and we are the best in the world. We started this industry and we are the best in the world at this industry. And we need to keep hold of that mantle. And to do that we have to go and spread our wings. And actually you learn more about yourself in spreading your wings, because suddenly you're going to say you're going to Dubai and Dubai is a party town, but you don't know anyone.

Speaker 1: 36:01

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:02

You're living in a hotel, you know, and so you go to work and you come home, and you go to work and you come home, but it's about actually sort of saying, okay, no, no, I'm going to go to a gallery or I'm going to go and do this and I'm going to make myself talk to people. And then suddenly you know, you're kind of you've got a group of friends and that group, you know, and there's loads of, there's loads of people that are kind of out there doing it. You know, riyadh seems to be the new place to place to be. I've not I've not been out there, but it's certainly got some really interesting projects kind of like going on and it's got frankly, it's got frankly, it's got better winter than we've got. Yes, yeah, but I think, you know, it's always worth going to different countries. Learn about you know their culture, learn about you know, because you have to do things differently, because it's a different culture.

Speaker 1: 36:56

And actually then when you come back home and we work here, it means we can innovate and do things and actually take a step back and look which which is actually, if we want to keep evolving, that's a really an amazing way to do it and, you know, especially because we are such a multicultural country, actually we can be more representative of that and that's really that's a really special thing to have and most not a lot of people get that multiculturalism is really important and I'm really glad you brought that up, because I think kind of without multiculturalism and without us representing everyone and not just the few, yeah we are not doing our job properly as kind of cultural, kind of like leaders.

Speaker 2: 37:36

So it's really important that you learn along the way and you don't just fall back on what you already know absolutely.

Speaker 1: 37:44

My next question is around you, you've also done lots of solo, nikki Halifax, as art director, producer. I wondered how do you decide which projects to say yes to and ones which to walk away from? And I appreciate that sometimes we pitch for things and sometimes things come for us, but sometimes I just wondered what your kind of barometer would be around going. Yeah, that's the one for me, or I know more about it. No, because of your experience in your kind of values.

Speaker 2: 38:14

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't like, for instance, I wouldn't do anything that you know encouraged kind of under underage, kind of like working or you know, kind of anything like that.

Speaker 2: 38:25

So you know I'm really that, so you know I'm I'm really careful about the countries that I will go to yeah for that reason, and you know, and also kind of you know, how they treat their own kind of like citizens is also kind of really important. But mostly it's about looking at the subject matter, talking to the people that are also going to be involved in it, because quite often they'll have set up a board or they'll have set up, you know, there'll be something there that you know the bones of which and it's almost like they're interviewing you but actually you're interviewing them, and then you need to go away and you need time to think, and if they don't give you time to think, then that's a red flag to me instantly. It's kind of like I know I need to think about this for at least kind of like 72 hours. Kind of like you know, but then look, look into, you know kind of like the subject matter as well, and think, well, is do I have? Is there some kernel of ideas? Because if you're not the right person to do something, those kernel of ideas won't come.

Speaker 2: 39:28

Yeah, and I'm a strong believer that you have to be the you know you've got to have an interest in what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 39:34

So it might not be the actual physical subject matter, like I'm not interested in oil rigs, but what I want for the sea monster. But what I was interested in was reuse and using art to tell that reuse and climate change story in a really positive way rather than a negative way, because it's too easy for us to fall into that negative kind of social media trap and I think the thing that culture can do is flip it on its head and look at the kind of positives so that's how I choose roles is basically whether I can come up in 72 hours with one kernel of an idea and if I can do that, then I know that I can do that. And then, having spoken to the people, am I going to be a good fit? Because there's nothing worse than going into an organisation and I've been really lucky in my career. It's only happened once where I've kind of gone into an organization and just thought, oh god, no, you've made a mistake yeah and and it's, and you don't want to let anyone down.

Speaker 2: 40:40

But by the same token, you know, you, you know pretty quickly, within that kind of first six months, whether you mess up and you know. And then you've got to say, actually this isn't for me and be really kind of honest about it and I'm not for you, and you know, they'll know too, but you know and just walk away from it because there's no, there's nothing wrong in that yeah, no, I agree, and I think that's definitely some something that people that want to work in the creative industries or company do.

Speaker 2: 41:15

That that's the most generous you can be with yourself is knowing if it doesn't work or it's not right, or it's not floating your boat and move on okay, being a generous to them as well, because if you're not feeling it, then they're not going to get the best product that they could possibly get, and I think that's the really important thing. Again, you're thinking about the audience yeah, they're not going to get.

Speaker 1: 41:34

They're not going to the audience won't get the right thing if you're not there and it will just be a struggle. Um, and we clearly don't work in the creative industries for money.

Speaker 2: 41:42

Uh I I took a 50 pay cut when I moved into the culture sector, from the culture but look at how much we get from it.

Speaker 1: 41:52

Hey, so you've done some really amazing projects and you've been involved in loads of cultural moments. I know this is going to be a hard question, but is the one or two things that you've worked on that you'd say are really stand out for you and have got really strong resonance in what you kind of have done?

Speaker 2: 42:12

yeah, I mean, it's really, that's really I know especially your list.

Speaker 2: 42:16

I'm like, oh, I could pick about 12 sea monster, just because it was a world first, you know, and it was an extraordinary feat. We just had brexit and we were moving a 415 ton oil rig onto a beach in western superman in one move, plonking it on your legs and creating an art. And we didn't. We, I knew it would work and I knew if we could get it there. I knew it would work and I knew if we could get it there. I knew it would work and I knew it would be absolutely amazing, but it really did. I mean, we had 500,000 people through that.

Speaker 1: 42:54

So the sea monster was extraordinary. Go and look it up. If you've not, I don't know what we're talking about. And it was one of those ones. I remember when the initial CGI's came out, I was like Nikki, what the hell are you doing? Ones I remember when the initial CGI's came out, I was like Nikki, what the hell are you doing? And then fast forward when it. I know it's like logistically challenging, but oh my goodness, it looked exactly like it and actually obviously you're stimulating all the senses because it's real, it's extraordinary and let alone, I suppose, like obviously, the scale of the rig, but actually what you created was so beautiful and it was just those places they kind of came through.

Speaker 2: 43:31

They've never seen a real rig before because, let's face it, who has? And you know we worked with some really interesting people. So we worked with a guy called Dr Amit Patel on that project and made sure that it was completely accessible for blind and partially sighted as well as for others. And that's no mean task because, you know, they're not designed to be climbed by people that don't know what they're doing, let alone people that can't necessarily see what they're doing. And so that was, you know, that was really important because it was 100 accessible.

Speaker 2: 44:09

I think kind of the other thing of that about that project was that, you know, no one had done it before. It was the largest reuse project in the world and it's a blueprint for the future, because these things just get dumped into, you know, and then kind of recycled or, worse still, actually get sold to Africa and they just sit in almost like a graveyard, can't reuse them in the sense, you know, they're never going to be an oil rig or a gas rig again. So the fact that we managed to do that, and then at the end of it, yes, it was munched, and I mean literally munched, but it was a hundred percent recyclable at that point. So every piece of metal on that thing was recycled and every plant was planted in western super mare and became a garden in its own right. So that proves that it can be done.

Speaker 2: 45:01

Now all we've got to do is get people out of their cars that come to events, because actually that's the biggest car footprint and I guess the other one was made in Hull, just because I mean you know this. It was just extraordinary. None of us knew. I mean, we knew it would be good, but none of us knew that by day seven I'd be ringing you going. David, can you tell me how many people are on a train.

Speaker 1: 45:27

I'd be ringing you going. David, can you tell me how many people are on a train? And I'm like, um, nikki, there's about 10,000 people coming towards you. Don't panic, it's fine, the trains are stuck. They're stopping the trains because people won't get off the trains. It was mad, but it's interesting. So when, um, I published Martin Green's podcast you speak about, and he admits about his poor idea, nicky for the first time.

Speaker 1: 45:51

What an extraordinary thing it became because of you and the teams that worked on it. It just felt wonderful, it was of whole and it marked a beautiful moment, didn't it for that start of that incredible year in 2017.

Speaker 2: 46:06

When you're standing next to kind of like the chief of police and going right, so we need to close down that A road and that A road. Then next and it was all the public realm hadn't quite been finished.

Speaker 1: 46:16

I can remember no Orange Barrier galore.

Speaker 2: 46:20

And it was, but it was. It was such an amazing atmosphere and I think kind of that was the other thing, like no one was getting grumpy about having to wait for things, no one was you know, and you just moved around and everyone you saw generational, inter inter exchanges which were, which was fabulous, and I don't think I will match that again because we literally did it in I think, 20 weeks and from start to finish of that kind of like process of getting the artist kind of commission and doing it, and they did the. Some of those artists did extraordinary work and some of those artists actually imitating the dog I worked with, I worked with on S&TR 300, because I think that's the other thing once you find artists that you like, you know they can, you know, because they're artists they can think outside the box as well, so you can actually kind of mold things to actually, you know, bring and bring people together for some really interesting results yeah, Made in Hall was, and the spectrum of emotion literally those confined spaces was.

Speaker 1: 47:29

you know, we had laughter, crying, celebration, intergeneration. It was amazing. I still feel very, very passionate about that project.

Speaker 2: 47:39

I still love that joke shop we did I can't remember the artist's name, he was brilliant but he said I want to create a joke shop we did I can't remember the artist's name, he was brilliant, but he said I wanted, I want to create a joke shop. So we just took this shop that had never, hadn't been used for probably about 10 years, and he just stuck all these jokes and like kind of fake adverts on it and he stayed there for like three months.

Speaker 1: 47:58

Oh yeah, because everyone was like well, why move it? Just leave it. It was amazing. Yeah, very good memories of that. What gets you out of bed in the morning these days, nikki? What excites you after doing all these different types of projects and working with all these different artists?

Speaker 2: 48:14

people. That's what gets me out of. You know it's people at the end of the day that you know that's what we do and it's it's about creating something that will stick in somebody else's memory, and that's why I get out of bed in the morning. It's not well, we know it's not for the money.

Speaker 1: 48:32

The recurring theme on Before the Applause it's not for the money. And it's not for the working hours, or the steps or the mileage?

Speaker 2: 48:42

no, yeah, but no, it's the people, and it's the people that you interact with and you become friends with. You know, if I hadn't have done this, I wouldn't know you, I wouldn't know. You know, I wouldn't know you kind of like martin, I wouldn't know, kind of, uh, you know, patrick, I wouldn't know phil. You know all these different, all these different kind of like people, and we're all very different, but we all kind of know that pulling in one direction for the greater good of a project is, you know, is is so important and actually so fulfilling it is definitely fulfilling and it's very, very special.

Speaker 1: 49:19

And I know we, you know, before we even started recording this, talking about the challenges of the world and the funding and my god, it's exhausting sometimes. What would you say to encourage anyone to either participate in art and culture or to step into it as a like a viable career? What would you say to encourage an audience and someone wants to maybe work?

Speaker 2: 49:45

yeah, in terms of an audience, if something is free, you have nothing to lose. So why not go and experience it? Because actually museums aren't scary places. They might seem really big and grand but actually what's inside them can be very personal and very kind of like touching, can be very personal and very kind of like touching. And and don't do the I need to get myself some headsets and walk around with a headset. Just go and look at a painting and actually or go to and see a dance and or go and see some opera, because actually it's your emotional outpouring to that piece. It's not about what somebody else thinks it is, it's actually what you think it is. So don't be afraid to try it and, like I say, if it's free and it's outside, then you're not even within the confines of a building, so you really can kind of, you know, fill up, fill up one with it and if and if that's not for you, that's fine, that's not for you, you don't like it, you've had an opinion on it, and and you're allowed to hold an opinion because you know it's your personal, it's personal to you.

Speaker 2: 50:52

I think if you want to get into the industry, my advice would just be to just do it and and go for it because, like, like we've, we've tried to kind of like say here, it's, it's not a job, it is a kind of like calling and it's it's probably the most important tool that we have as a nation is is culture, and it has to represent everyone, and I think I've said that a couple of times. So in that representing of everyone, it means that everyone needs to go into it. So it doesn't matter if you've got blue sky, pink, you know, kind of like skin tone, with green hair and kind of 17 legs, and you know, if there is a community of you all like that, then someone needs to represent you in it. Otherwise, how do we educate each other in communication tools? So I think that's really important. I think kind of you know, the Women of the World project that we're finishing on is part of that. It's about how do we have conversations between boys and girls that is respectful but that is helpful to both.

Speaker 2: 52:08

Yeah, because not one side has all the answers and it has to be everyone's kind of together and that can be across the board in everything that you look at through life, and culture has an amazing ability to do that in a playful way, and so it can. It doesn't necessarily. You don't necessarily go in thinking I'm going to learn about this today, or you know physics and you go in and you go well, I learned that that. Well, what's that then? And it's and it triggers, and so then you start to read something, or you'll go on the internet and you'll kind of research something and then suddenly you know, before you know it, you're reading kind of like beyond time or something and I really love that answer because it's something that I often talk about that everybody should be in it, and there's more people that are involved in the creative industries than often reports do.

Speaker 1: 53:05

So you, using the internet, your smartphone, reading a book, listening to your favorite artist, watching a film at home or the cinema, looking at your fashion.

Speaker 2: 53:15

That is creativity, and so it has a place everywhere, and it's up to you where you lean into it yeah, and we can't live without it, because you wouldn't be sitting on a chair without design, you wouldn't be sitting. We certainly wouldn't be looking at a computer without physics and chemistry and you know we couldn't. We wouldn't have the kind of like different style of glasses. So it's all interwoven and I think that's kind of like really important, of like really important, and I don't think we necessarily we don't champion it enough in terms of the fact that it is the second largest industry. It brings in more money. This industry brings in probably more money and employs more people than most industries.

Speaker 1: 54:00

I think the only the only thing that employs more people is the NHS yeah, and I think um, so the number actually is about 130 billion to the economy and it's the fastest growing sector that contributes to the uk because we're so good at it yeah, yeah and we're renowned for and the space for everybody to either be an audience member, to do a hobby, to be an artist, a producer, that there is enough for everybody. And actually it's about storytelling, telling yours and other people.

Speaker 1: 54:28

So I really like that beautiful answer to that one use, your use the left side of your brain we're nearly at the end of the podcast, but I've got two more things to to ask you industry misconceptions and bugbears. I wondered if there's any myths, misconceptions, pet peeves you'd like to clear once and for all where do you want me to start?

Speaker 2: 54:51

um, no, the industry is getting better at listening to a more diverse um audience. However, I would say since covid, we have gone backwards in women's issues again and in the industry that I love. I find that really, really frustrating, because there are a lot of women in this industry but we don't get paid as much as the men and we need to be really honest about that and stand up and sort of say why. And also, you know, having you know, I'm in, I'm in a region at the moment whereby the majority of the directors in the region are women. That's not being, that's not being celebrated at all which I find astounding.

Speaker 2: 55:44

And then you go to the archives and I've had such fun I mean, I've never been to so many archives in my life as I've been on this project and you learn about all these amazing women in the, you know, and all these amazing people and these most beautiful drawings, etc. No one's necessarily kind of like talking about it because they're too scared to. So, yeah, so the women's issue is, is, uh, is a real issue and and with the birth of kind of like you know, andrew, tate and all and trump and all of that nonsense as well, you know young women again, I think we really need to be able to give them a voice, because Because if we don't, we are in danger of kind of really letting them down, and I don't think that would be fair.

Speaker 1: 56:34

Maybe there's a project in this for us, nikki, about celebrating women creatives, because Liverpool as well, a lot of the top jobs here are women and I don't think they get enough credit for it, obviously without naming names of certain people down south I always see on tv and interviews and mother. Maybe there's a project in it for us. I don't know, not that I'm creating. You more work.

Speaker 2: 56:56

I mean, yeah, I mean, I think, kind of interestingly I think that's what you know someone like Jude Kelly, um is you know who was the kind of creative director, brainchild behind women of the world international festival. She's been having those kind of conversations for many, many years and it's about all of us kind of like joining that movement, if you like, and we have to make it a movement again, um, you know, and then we can start kind of like talking about kind of like other things, given that we are 50 of the population. I'm sorry, my cat's just decided to join us.

Speaker 1: 57:32

Hello huxley people. This is live.

Speaker 2: 57:36

This is how it works because we're 50 of the population.

Speaker 1: 57:39

I think kind of we have to kind of address that first but there's a lot of work to do and I know you know some of the other guests. We've been talking about this and um. So there's a lot of work to do and I know you know some of the other guests. We've been talking about this and um. So there's dance mamas about parent moms coming back to work. But having opportunities that parents are performing arts is a really amazing initiative, and that's not specifically just to women, it's also men. Um, these are really important things that we all should get behind, and but I also I also like to remind people like they're not new.

Speaker 2: 58:07

People have been championing banging doors for so long, so it's nice to see them starting to grow 1825, you know, kind of you had the quaker movement which came out of sndr 200, and the quakers believed in anti-slavery and votes for women, you know. So it isn't new, it's all cyclical, but actually you know, and there are, you know, there are some groups cited that have double whammy because they're a woman and they accessibility issues or, um, you know, or a black, you know, and they have issues that then I don't have.

Speaker 1: 58:42

So you've got, you've got things on things, yeah, that they, you know, can start really grinding you down and that's why we need to come together and we need to make sure the change that we want to see happens yes, absolutely, and you know, people are moving in the right direction.

Speaker 2: 59:00

Do not get me wrong. It is moving, but I just noticed a step backward during code.

Speaker 1: 59:06

I didn't think that we'd see I know, unfortunately, but I have faith. I have a last question opportunity, so I ask every guest to make a cultural confession at the end of their interview. I don't know, not necessarily getting yourself into trouble, but it could be a little secret, something that people wouldn't know about you, something that happened on a gig that no one ever knows about, something memorable, perhaps, nikki, make your cultural confession.

Speaker 2: 59:43

I once sat at a table where I was told that Nike's nipples were too um it it was a summer games, not a winter games they needed filing down, and as she was an athlete, did we not think her thighs were too big? And I don't know I I don't know how I didn't spit my drink out, um, and I don't know. I don't know how I didn't spit my drink out, and I don't know how others around the table didn't spit their drink out either. We were all just kind of like looking at each other. But yeah, but yes, I won't name the person that's kind of said it, but it was probably the most hilarious thing that I've ever encountered. And another thing was make sure that you don't mix up your feet and your meters, and I'm not going to say any more on that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:35

Nikki Halifax. Thank you so much for doing this interview with me. It's been a pleasure sharing your story and hopefully giving some people some inspo and some tips, and we'll be following what you're doing in the future and I'll make sure all the links are in there. But thank you very much again.

Speaker 2: 1:00:51

Oh, thank you, it's been a real pleasure. Lovely to see you again you too.

Speaker 1: 1:00:57

Thanks for listening to this episode of Before the Applause. Please do tell everyone about this podcast and stay connected with us across all the usual social media platforms by searching at before applause. If you've got any burning questions, want to share your own insights, want to recommend a guest or be one yourself, then we'd love to hear from you. You can direct