SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to this new episode of Before the Applause with me, your host, David Watson. In this episode, I talk to Max Westwell, a celebrated performer whose journey has taken him from the world's most prestigious stages to the bright lights of film and television. Whether you've seen his Romeo with English National Ballet, taking the lead in Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake, dazzling audiences in the smash hit American in Paris, Gracing the screen in Disney's The Nutcracker and The Four Rounds or capturing hearts in TV series Bridgerton. Max's talent and versatility are undeniable and he's only just getting started. But behind the spotlight is a story of discipline, reinvention and extraordinary resilience. We talk about his path from high energy child choosing ballet over gymnastics to navigating the brutal demands of a professional dance career. Max opens up about a career-defining role, devastating injuries and the moment he nearly walked away from it all. This is a conversation about transformation of body, mind and purpose. We explore his leap into freelance life, his shift into acting and how he has continued to evolve as an artist, entrepreneur and lifelong learner. Max's story is one of passion, grit and finding new purpose when the old path no longer fits. It's a reminder of what's possible when you keep pushing forward through setbacks, reinventions and the unknown. Grab a cup of something nice and join us as we discover more before the applause. Max Westwell, thank you very much for doing this. That's all right. No worries at all. Firstly, you're always really supportive of everything that I do. And when I asked you to do this, you said yes straight away. So I'm really, really grateful. Thank you very much. That's all right. So this podcast is all about the bits before the applause, so like the show, and deep dives into everything that goes into creating these amazing experiences. The blood, the sweat, the tears, the winds, the challenges, and the realities of life. You work so hard in everything you do. You put the hours in. You've done so from a small child, but you've also expanded and changed your career so much. And That's why I thought you'd be really interesting to have on this. And I think lots of people could learn, maybe be inspired. And actually, I don't feel like you get to share your story very often. So this is going to hopefully be a great conversation for us, but also the listeners. So I met you many moons ago back at National Ballet and you were one of the star dancers there. But one of the things that I realised very quickly was that you were quite business minded as well. I think you understood how to kind of be in that space as well, be a dancer. You were always very curious. You're obviously very charming and lovely and all that. But actually, you were really engaged in what we were doing. There were always times you'd ask me what I was working on or you'd be curious about the operations. And we'll go into all the other bits of your career. But I just wondered if that's how you think about yourself, that you are curious and that you think beyond yourself. The kind of the job that you do in?

SPEAKER_03: 3:11

Always super open. And I'm generally quite excitable. And anything new and novelty, I find exciting. So knowing what's going on in the building, knowing what's being developed, knowing how it all fits together, knowing where it's heading and where the potential opportunities could be within the different... projects that are happening is something that I didn't actually realize I was doing it when I was in full-time employment but it was when I got out into being a freelancer I was it was literally like my mind kind of just exploded into all these different areas and I was like oh wow like this is kind of an element that I was missing when I was in full-time company and the ability to go and explore all these different things was just super exciting to me.

SPEAKER_00: 4:01

And I remember you always being curious and around all this, the action and asking questions. Even though you'd probably done like 12 hour rehearsals, you'd still then make the time to come and ask the questions and be like, oh, what are you doing on this photo shoot or this video? And it's good that you do recognise that because I think that makes a different kind of artist and dancer, which it isn't a single track. And I think that's one of the things that people... are starting to realize maybe in the last decade, it isn't just being a dancer. You need a personal brand. You need all these other things. And you learn that when you get these opportunities. It's this

SPEAKER_03: 4:34

energy thing as well. I was always quite robust and I had loads of energy. So it was a bit like once you start the ball rolling, I would just keep going with the energy. And you go from this thing to that thing. Once I'm up and on my feet and engaging with people, it's all people and relationships,

SPEAKER_02: 4:53

basically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 4:54

That's the bit that really gives me energy and it gives me more and more energy, which is why it keeps on rolling. That's when I'm in my happy place.

SPEAKER_00: 5:04

Happy place is a good place to be, isn't it? So for our audience, I am sure many people know who you are and what you do, but shall we go back? And I wanted to ask you about how you got into dance in the first place, because I know you started really, really young. A little

SPEAKER_03: 5:23

wee tuck. Getting into dancing, basically it was anything physical, was good for me. I was super ADHD and sort of just ran around like a nutter, even three. I was, obviously I'm much calmer now and have a handle on things, but I was very, very dyslexic and school just... it all made sense to me looking at it, but I couldn't write it down and I couldn't spell it and I couldn't read it and I couldn't. And so that whole process for me was just like, okay, so this is actually not what I'm doing. But when you're on, and you kind of don't get bullied when you're on every sports team and you're doing gymnastics and you're doing dancing and you're, so it was, I don't know whether it was a coping mechanism or, but it developed from just this incessant sort of energy and movement.

SPEAKER_00: 6:21

And you definitely have lots of energy. So when you, you then you started dancing from three and then you went to dance training. What was your, where did you go? And what was that experience like doing it for

SPEAKER_03: 6:34

real? So initially I was in a town hall doing once a week, pretending to be a pixie with all the other fairies. And I, all the other guys started dropping out. And I actually was like, this stimulates me more than kick the ball in the net. That was quite simple. Whereas dance was like your whole body, it was different every time. It was to music, it was artistic. It was like, it was just so much more. And I was just no way. The only thing that came close to it was gymnastics, but it was missing the... So I did gymnastics right up until I was about 10 and I had to choose whether I was going to do gymnastics properly or whether I was going to go dance. And for me, I don't actually even remember thinking about it. It was just like I was going to do dance. So I was in the JA feeder system, which is the Junior Associates for Royal. And I'd done a bit on stage before. with them sort of being a page boy at the opera house. And so you'd sort of seen the grandeur and you'd seen these incredible dancers. And there was like a picture forming in my mind. And I went to Arts Ed Tring in the end. Basically, I remember walking into the huge hall and there was music playing and people laughing and I could hear someone singing as well as people hopping about. And I was like, this is it. This actually is where I want to go. And I didn't want to do just the straight ballet thing. I was always interested in like everything. Yeah. And I absolutely loved art centering. Like it gave me a very well-rounded base. I met lots of different people with lots of different point of views and lots of different artists, all in a melting pot. Like we would go to music rooms and you'd sing along to one of your friend who could play the piano. And after you'd already done everything, a full day of dancing and you'd done your academics in the morning. And like, it just, for me was like, I belong here. This works rather than sort of traditional schooling, which just, I just couldn't even comprehend.

SPEAKER_00: 8:47

And for Tring, do you kind of like bored? Do you move away from home?

SPEAKER_03: 8:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I moved when I was 11. broke my parents' heart and sort of, they came and got me actually every weekend for the first about six months until apparently I was like,

SPEAKER_02: 9:05

no,

SPEAKER_03: 9:06

I'm good. Leave me be. What do you mean you're good? And I was like, no, no, like I want to stay, like I'm happy staying. So you do three week chunks and then you come home for a weekend. But very quickly, I mean, I liked boarding. You made lifelong friends. I'm still in contact with lots of people from school who, are either artists or not, or moved on, or I've, I still get work from people that I went to school with, even if they were 10 years above or five years below, or like those, everything, all those relationships have, lots of them have come into play and it's been nice to see people. And it's, yeah, I absolutely love Tring.

SPEAKER_00: 9:48

That's amazing. So when you, when you were at Tring, was there a moment that you can remember where you were like, okay, I'm going to go down the classical route. So what was that moment? And I wonder if you could talk through like how you felt. It was

SPEAKER_03: 10:05

actually easier than you think because you have to do classical first.

SPEAKER_01: 10:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 10:12

So there was a moment of like, if you're going to do this and I kind of, I didn't have the perfect body, but I knew that I had enough in the body that I could do it. So I had to do it first and it was around midway through GCSE. So I don't know what that is, 15, something like that. I was like, okay, I'm all in on the ballet dancer thing. I still followed everything else and I still had singing lessons and we still were doing like jazz and contemporary and tap and everything else. I kind of, there was a point where I nearly went musical theatre at school and we hovered over that, but you do have to decide. So then it was like, I was all in and we were doing British Young Dancer and the Gen A and like competitions. And you're really focused on getting that first job. Basically, the school allowed me to go and apply for EMB extras, English National Ballet extras for the Royal Albert Hall, Swan Lake. And so I went for that and auditioned and put my number on and was totally terrified. And I was 17 at the time. And I got the job, and it was seven weeks at the Albert Hall, and then I could do three weeks back at school, and then I'd finish and graduate. So it was amazing. So I was working tax-free at 17. They allowed me to go and do this contract, and I was a trumpeter. Oh, yes. I got to cover the waltz, and I was a trumpeter. And the trumpeter walks in for an eight, plays the trumpet for an eight, walks out for an eight. And that was kind of my show. I didn't even make it to the stage, I don't think, initially on the casting. It was like a sort of entrance thing. Anyway, so somebody went down and it was the person that I was covering. And I got to go into Walsh and prove that I could hold my head together and prove that I could really do it. And I was dancing with a lady who was... 20 years older than me. So at the time it was, you know, everything is completely new, even being in the round and surrounded by 5,000 people. And that was the make or break moment. And I actually got to do it for like, I think I did it a couple of times, did about 10 shows. So I got a really good chunk of it and settled and kind of learned. And I went to class and every single day and pushed as hard as I possibly could. Like, I did class in the morning because I knew people were watching like it was a show. Yeah. Turned up 45 minutes to an hour before, warm everything up. It was like, this is do or die. This was the job I was going to get. I liked the people. And they did, I think in the last week, offer me a contract where you do a six-month probation. Yeah. but they offered me the contract. So I went to school, went back to school, literally feeling like a superhero and did my life. And you're like, yeah, I got a job. Because when you're at school, that's all you think about. Oh God, yeah. I remember spending, I mean, it must've been like four years of like just this haunting, like, how am I going to get a job? Where do I want to go? What do I want to do? And then when you get it, it was such a release of energy. And then you're off on a whole new other learning curve because you realise you were fairly good in your class, but you are absolutely not. In comparison to like Russian principals and people from Cuba and people can do things that you didn't even know were possible. So that was wonderful.

SPEAKER_00: 14:02

That's quite a first, even if it was an extra job to land at the Royal Hall in such a big production and Swan Lake in the round is, iconic and it's bloody hard it's so disoriented because you don't you know at school you do like they don't ever go oh let's do it in the round just in case you get a job in the round so what an amazing introduction to that but then also EMB where you then had an epic career so now I wanted to ask you about and it might feel really strange because I know we're in 2025 and most people don't talk about it but being male being and a dancer was quite a challenge for a lot of people's minds back then when you probably started and when I was training. Yeah. Add on to that, if you're straight, that blew their minds. And I wonder if any of that weird stuff was anything that registered with you and people's perceptions around that. Because I know some dancers, which I'm not suggesting you are, some people that I trained with didn't tell their male friends they were even training at a dance school, which blows my mind. I just wondered what your experience with this being a male and trying to be in that world?

SPEAKER_03: 15:13

My experience, it was kind of, to be honest, I was having more problems with the fact that I was rubbish at school when I was having problems that I was a male dancer because I was also a gymnast and also on sports teams. And that was kind of what made it okay. Also, I've always been quite interpersonal with people. So, Managing that within a playground situation, I don't remember that actually being the problem, really, if I'm being honest. And I've always been... I think it's actually from my family. So my parents both worked in film and TV, and my dad worked on the ships as a performer for a while. And so there was a performance element understanding there, and they were both freelance. And they... were very open-minded and super supportive. And it was quite obvious that somewhere in this route was my thing. So there was a bit of a, it's always been a like bugger what everyone thinks kind of thing. I've done a lot of like, what do you think? Because I also never think the same as everyone else. And it's learning to trust that even if you haven't got a clue where it's going, which is sort of like beyond reason, but you just have to, You just have to go for it. Like, as a straight guy in white tights, I've stood in the middle of Leicester Square and promoted various shows and been wolf whistled at. But there's weirdly something really cool about that.

SPEAKER_02: 16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 16:56

Being an individual and I've got very thick skin and you can knock me down, but I'm up so fast you won't even know I went down. Like, you... you just become very, it becomes, yeah, you become it. It's a part of you. So it's not deniable or something that I would hide. It's just who I am.

SPEAKER_00: 17:24

And you've always been up for a challenge. And I remember us doing some mad-ass PR stunts. And you're like, yep, I'm up for it. Yep, I'll do this. Never moaning. You're always there, which is something that, you know, embrace that superpower and really commit to it in order to be fulfilled out of it. So you got your gig with EMB, joined the company, had a mad six-month induction. Hopefully I'm right. You were there 11 years? 12. 12 years? 12 years. Which is a pretty good inning. And you've gone through some epic stuff at EMB. You've done some amazing roles. And I... saw you before I joined the company, because I worked in that world, and I always used to see you doing roles. And I'm like, well, why is he not a principal? And it's one of those things that took me a long time to get my head around. And then I joined the company, and actually, you used to do so many amazing roles. You do core stuff, but then Max would be doing a principal role. I just wondered, I know it's hard to pick certain things out, but I wondered if there's any standout moments of your time with EMB and the roles and the reps that you did. I know lots of dancers that I taught. There's often one thing that really changes the game for them. And I just wondered what that might

SPEAKER_03: 18:43

be

SPEAKER_00: 18:43

for you.

SPEAKER_03: 18:44

Nureyev's Romeo and Juliet. I did... The first time I played Romeo was my first sort of big break role. And... I learned so much and I went completely teetotal, like no booze. We did the diet, we did the cycling to work. We went like, I think I was actually with someone and we split up. Like I was so completely like, and I went for it. And we worked with people from Paris Opera and they were like the original Thibault and it was amazing. the most incredible experience and super painful and super difficult. And I accessed sort of acting and physicality that I had never come anywhere close to. And there was an element, I remember Vadim, who's now a principal at Royal, he went down on a Saturday night at Coliseum and I stepped in and I remember standing backstage and I was... I think I was 24 or something. And we had a film crew who were making a documentary in the wings, asking me questions and filming me at the same time as I was stepping in to like, I mean, who is one of the best principals in the world right now's position to do Saturday night with a wonderful Juliet. And I had this sort of two and a half hour marathon created by Nuriev in front of me. And I remember going, This, I like, I can't get better than this. So that was the one for me. And then you never doubt again. Because once you've done one, you are undeniable. And then it's just, I mean, it's not, I'm not going to say pure enjoyment because there's always highs and lows and life and injuries and all sorts that goes on. But that was the biggest one. for me by miles.

SPEAKER_00: 20:44

And did you, I've watched rehearsals with you when we're restaging and this is at the point where you've done it multiple times, but that process of creating and perfecting, is that something you actually enjoy or is it a frustration? Because depending on who you talk to, someone's like, I've done this 10,000 times and they get frustrated, but because you love all that detail and I just wouldn't, I reckon your brain must have been like, zinging off the charts what was that process like for you when you're getting to create and stage work

SPEAKER_03: 21:17

so my I learned quite quickly my creativity is not sit on the side of a cliff and come up with wonderful dreamy ideas and envision futures and like my brain just doesn't do that

SPEAKER_01: 21:31

yeah

SPEAKER_03: 21:31

It does do that to an extent, but it's not like my main mode. But if you put me in front of someone and you go, this is the situation. How do you feel? How do you want to move? How do you want to express this? Where do we want to take this? What could be the possible thing next? Then it's like my whole brain just reverberates. And that is... I can stay in that space for as long as you want. Like I absolutely love that process. The more freedom you have to do that and the more confidence you have within that process, that is, I mean, that's where the real gems are, I think.

SPEAKER_00: 22:14

It gives you a lot of confidence for the rest of your career, right? And you always draw on those successes and challenges. Most dancers don't go through being a dancer at your level without injury. I am sure you've had a few and I just wondered, is there any that stand out for you because of what you became afterward? Because I'm always intrigued by what it does to individuals when you've gone through that and you're literally having to sit, if you're lucky to be in the studio, and watch the thing happening without you and the physical change to you. I wondered what experience you've had on that.

SPEAKER_03: 22:51

Absolutely awful. And you get, when you're really injured, you get really depressed. It's almost like you, you can't, you can't look people in the eye. You have like, you withdraw massively into yourself and you, you're watching people do things that you want to do and you can't move and you can't see a way back. And it's just, I don't know how much I'm allowed to swear, but it's awful. Fucking awful, basically. And it's in my second year, I pushed so hard. This is a don't, This is be smarter rather than just work hard at the moment. And I was jumping so much and I had so much impact that I got a thing called an osteoid osteoma in my shin, which is basically a bone tumor. And They drilled in and had to laser the middle of this bone tree tumor. And then when I came back, I had another operation because a piece of bone broke off in my knee because I came back to too much impact. Then the tumor in the shin came back and they had to cut a dice shape out of my shin and I had to grow the shin back together. It was like a sum total of, it was three ops in a row and it was like nine months in bed. And I nearly lost my job. Like it was like, I remember having... conversations with the director and then being like we you have potential so we're going to keep paying for you but really we should let you go I mean it's like really low point when you're 20 years old and

SPEAKER_01: 24:18

yeah

SPEAKER_03: 24:19

but from that you get into the sports science and you get into the Pilates and you get into the you you you have to go that route and you do come back stronger I know that's the cliche but it's This time, you literally come back stronger because all the weak bits, you now know where they are. You know you've got better stability. You've got better understanding. After that, I didn't get injured again for another 10 years. So you do that learning in a sort of compounded way because you have to.

SPEAKER_01: 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:55

From there, you have a way to manage your body and to manage your life and your nutrition and your fitness. And we used to do amazing things at EMB, which I loved. You take the role and you put heart rate monitor on and you would then track what your heart does as you do the pas de deux, say that's 10 minutes long and a total nightmare. And then you would train that pattern of heart rate so that your body knows what's coming. And just doing all of that it just takes everything up another notch. And then you add more jump and more this and more that. And you suddenly go, I can really do this and I can play with it. And I can, you can add, it adds a whole element on top and you wouldn't have that understanding without the injury.

SPEAKER_00: 25:41

What a great segue into kind of, I was going to talk about the kind of the way, particularly classical companies have evolved and, Over the decades, we all know that dance isn't for the faint heart, but classical ballet is particularly tough. The strain it puts on your body, I suppose the unspoken thing back in the day, you dance on injury, which is horrific to think about, but people do it. And the mental kind of wellbeing aspect. And I don't think ballet companies, and particularly wherever, particularly well equipped to address all of these things. And you just mentioned like this new approach to the holistic thing with bodies. And I'd been at the Royal watching them evolve their departments. And then I came to EMB and Tamara chucked in this whole thing. And it was like sports science. It's pretty impressive. It's pretty impressive. And I think it's been groundbreaking. It's changed everything. The one thing that I did want to ask about though, is about the kind of psychological impact, journey in ballet as a career about ballet companies um it's pretty tough it's naturally unlike I would say other companies that I work with are contemporary or commercial it is highly competitive you are always trying to fight for rank and roll against your friends lots of disappointment and I just wondered how you navigate that to keep healthy especially when you are so young yeah And you want a long career, but what's that like to navigate and be in that space where you're having to think about the mind as well as the physical bit? Because the physical is obvious, right? We're really putting it under work. But what about the other side of it?

SPEAKER_03: 27:22

There's a few things. So obviously it can get really, really stressy and you're learning multiple roles in multiple shows at multiple times all in one go. And you can't think of that many things in your head. What you do have on your side is is you get up six days a week, you get out in the sun, I used to cycle to work to get the blood moving because you'd be super stiff. Like I couldn't even walk down the stairs, the ankles are so tight, all of that sort of thing. But you then go and you do your hour and a half practice of class every day And you flush out your cortisol in your system and you are moving and you are super fit and you are super healthy. So you are super resilient. But you do, I always had a very stable home life, if you know what I mean. I lived in the same place in Battersea that I bought with a mate of mine for like 18 years. And my family's also in London and I have home friends. And I really worked hard in order to keep those point of views up and not just go ballet, ballet, ballet, because ballet, ballet, ballet, specifically ballet, is so intense that you can lose perspective and you can lose yourself within this bubble of 65 people and everyone else. And you really don't want that. You want to go and see a show and you want to go to a concert and you want to keep it widened and celebrate and let things go and drink too much occasionally. You need to reset. Otherwise, you just go mad because it keeps coming to a level that I cannot explain to people ever. If you do 12 years of six days a week flat out physical stuff all day, every day, you reach a point I mean, I reached a point where I was just like,

SPEAKER_02: 29:25

enough.

SPEAKER_03: 29:28

I have to go and see another perspective on the world. Saying that, you make lifelong friends. It is wonderful. You have wonderful experiences. You travel the world. You do roles that you didn't dream of. And like, it took me 10 years to do like a whiteboard white types prints kind of thing but I got to do it and I got to do it with multiple people and then you get to do it it was an incredible journey with massive highs and massive lows it's kind of it's everything you want it to be you can't ask for more out of it but you do have to manage your mental health and your stress because you are You also spend your life exhausted. I got really, really, I got very bored of being completely exhausted at points because you lose patience with everything being hard.

SPEAKER_00: 30:27

And then you have to wake up, oh, I've got to do it again. And the 37th nutcracker. And like, why are we doing this? Interestingly, some of the things, I obviously remember Max's beautiful technique and performances, but some of the great stuff is that you were one of the most social dancers ever. You were like, we're going out, we're doing this. We're not sticking in on time. Or in the morning, I'd be walking up the road to go to work and you're flying past on your bike and wind in your hair. So it's interesting that you really prioritise that because that's what I remember of you. And actually, we're still friends now, all this time afterwards with so many other people. And we still have those connecting moments, which is really, really special because people can struggle in the space. Yeah, open mechanisms.

SPEAKER_03: 31:11

Yeah. I always know... I retreat two people and that's what resets me. But that coping mechanism for me is very, very obvious. Whereas I realise other people need rest and a bath and, you know, some time alone with four walls with no stimulation. I need a bit of that, but I need, I'm very extrovert. So I need more connection related recovery. Which is beautiful.

SPEAKER_00: 31:39

It would be really weird of me not to mention, Agony and Ecstasy documentary. Because A, that was my first introduction to EME, which is bizarre. And if no one's watched it, I think you should go and find it on BBC iPlayer. This was reality TV on a whole different level. It was raw. It wasn't produced like some of the stuff now. Yeah, it's wild. I think in the world of the creative industries... It was a huge first of its kind. And you've got things like Devil Wears Prada, which is fictionalized, which then was followed by the September issue, which is raw Anna Wintour being full Anna Wintour. But Aggie in Ecstasy was huge. It really changed what people thought about dance. It had drama. It was insane. I think it did show lots of the things we've spoken about, including the social bits. And it made... mini stars out of people which i don't necessarily people think thought would happen without giving it all away because i think people should actually go watch it because i do think it's extraordinary i just wondered what it was like for you being part of that and now you are on this side years after how how do you feel about it because it is pretty bad i

SPEAKER_03: 33:01

mean it was awesome i lots of dancers it was kind of withdrew from the fact that talking to camera and this whole thing is also, it's very verbal and lots of dancers are quiet and more expressive of larger emotions through their body. So the thought of being on camera and having to speak for themselves was like terrifying, but very quickly I was, I was like, I can do that. And they kind of, they turned up and I was doing my first Romeo and, So that actually for me was priority. But if you want to talk about what I'm doing at that time, which was the most important thing in my life, then I'm like, yeah, we can talk about that. I can chat away. And it kind of developed from there. And they kept, I think they get, I mean, in hindsight, I'm like, it was bonkers. I should have laid down some boundaries and been like... I can't come off in the middle of act two and speak to you in the wings and then go back on again, like with half an eye on the counts behind. It was kind of like this mad rollercoaster, but I was so young that it was all just another thing that was very exciting. And I didn't really think of the outcome. I was so focused on what I was doing. It's very uncensored as well. They also... I mean, there must have been stuff that I'd said that they edited out because they made me look like, I don't know, a very balanced human when in fact I was absolutely going for it. But it was an amazing experience and the response. I mean, if I'd have had that response as a freelancer now, I could have capitalized on it and it would have been a whole thing and I'd have followed towards other stuff. But it was like... I got invited to hotel openings and I was in Grazia magazine and I had people recognizing me at the bus stop and saying, I was actually, I was eating a hamburger after I'd been to the pub and I had someone recognize me and go, you're that ballet guy. And I was like, oh, half in the real mouth. And it was kind of, but it was, it was amazing. And the response was, it was absolutely amazing. And I actually got quite a lot of work done. later on down the line because people feel they felt like they knew me yeah and I realized the power of exposure and like they were like we've seen how you deal with high pressure situations and you pull through and you're this and so I did a short stint at Birmingham Royal Ballet and he I think he David Bentley came in and watched one exercise and he went but I know who you are I've watched the program and he gave me the job and that's what I was like oh, wow, like that seriously powerful stuff. I collaborated with, believe it or not, Cillian Murphy because he watched the program. And we made, on a Sunday, we made a music video that he wanted to do and he called in a load of favors and he directed this thing. And he was a lovely guy, but he contacted me on Twitter because he'd seen the program. And I, yeah, I think it has shaped me an element of Max Westwell being Max Westwell, as opposed to just another ballet guy. So I was very lucky with

SPEAKER_00: 36:23

it. And if you think about it, social wasn't as crazy as it is now, and it didn't drive everything. You know, I was interviewing someone on this podcast and we were reminiscing like, God, how many times do we have to fight to even get a website? And social just wasn't in that. So you think about it now, it was extraordinary. And I, It had all the elements of good reality TV. And I mean, when it used to be like that, not some of the stuff that's produced now. It had the drama. Not everyone came off in great, like, it was controversial. It was joyous. It was raw. But also, it's real drama. Yeah, real.

SPEAKER_03: 36:57

Real. Angled for. It's like, that's genuinely what happens on a day-to-day basis. And it is quite high drama. And that, it was just raw, straight up. That's how

SPEAKER_00: 37:08

it is. And that's why it worked. And I think with... amongst all of that, which I often feel like is the real passion and the real talent of the dancers and the bloody hard work to get this stuff like you see it at the end of, you know, and that's the point of this podcast. You get to see the nice pretty nutcracker at the end, but the thing to go through that is just extraordinary. And it's quite interesting for me, even though I, so I joined EMB after that came out. I felt the impact for every year that I was at EMB with that. And I don't mean in a bad way, I was milking the crap out of it. Sponsorship, we're going to go and film in hotels, on yachts, whatever. It was insane. Interestingly, though, now I'm much older and I've run big teams and comms. It's definitely one of the things that I reference. So I get a lot of, you know, in the role going, oh, BBC want to do a documentary or Sky. I'm like, no, we're not doing that. because I can't have the control and they won't be as raw as what you did. So it's quite an interesting learning for me going, well, no, no, no. The reason why that worked, we're not emulating it, is because of the situation at the time. We're not trying to set people up or get caught up. And really, is that going to be as interesting as the first, right? That's why I hate when people do like nine versions of the same film.

SPEAKER_02: 38:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:33

But it's an extraordinary moment. And you've had an amazing career with EMB. So when did you make the decision to step away? And was it as torturous as sometimes these decisions can be when you go, oh, I've got to change. I need to step away from this. Because I know people struggle with making that decision. So the funny thing

SPEAKER_03: 38:55

is, when you're at school, all you can think about is getting the job. And then when you get the full-time employment and you You do the career and then you reach this point and then all you think about is giving up. Not giving up because, I mean, I don't think I'll ever give up, but like is what am I going to do after I leave? Because it is terrifying because you're so specialised. You have a skill that is only useful really in one place. You can expand into choreography or Pilates or la-la-la, and your soft skills are incredible. You can deal with people. You are super disciplined. You know how to get things done. You are fast. You're reliable. All of that you don't have to worry about. But I basically reached a point when I was about 29, 30, and I was like– I've actually done all the roles I want to do. I can stay and keep climbing the ladder and go first soloist and principal maybe if I make it. But I was like, I've actually, everything is a bonus from now on. So what do I want? Do I want to live that hyper-discipline thing forever and ever and ever? And I was like, what I really want is to explore. And I have had this training where I love theatre and I love singing and I love musicals and I want to be an actor. And I've always considered myself an actor. I'm within dance. If it's got a story, I'm connected and I'm in. When it's super abstract and it's just about how high you can put your legs, I always really struggled with that. I never thought of myself as some ethereal beauty. It was like I needed intention. And I just, there was an opportunity that sort of came up in American in Paris. So American in Paris was put on by Christopher Wilden, who is a huge classical choreographer. And I did five rounds on various Sundays for this role where it was for the lead guy. And you had to sing and you had to act and you had to dance and it was kind of jazzy and it was amazing. I got sent it by a friend of mine and she was like, I think that is you. And she was like, if you are ever going to jump, it's now. And I was already thinking it's now. So I did five rounds and actually didn't get it for whatever reason. I don't know what it was. And I remember being, I was so gutted. This is a completely ridiculous paradox. We were at Pala Garnier doing Le Corsaire. I was at the Paris Opera, and I remember being gutted and lying on the floor. Fuming. You are a ridiculous human being. Just be grateful for where you are. Anyway, a couple of weeks later, they called me back and they said, come in and we'll do another two rounds. I ended up doing like seven rounds for it. And then they offered me the job. It was very much like, this is me. I know that this is what I want. And most of the company thought I was completely insane because I was having a great career. I still was very mobile. I still had lots of life in me. It was going well. And from a classical standpoint, it was like, what are you doing? But I... I wanted it. It wasn't even that I doubted it. It was that I wanted it really badly and I wanted to change and I wanted it to be scary and I wanted to have to be humble and to learn stuff. And it really delivered. But I did jump. And as soon as I said I was leaving, other opportunities came up. So it was like Liam Scarlet was doing the Nutcracker and the Four Realms film. And suddenly was like, okay, so you're available and you can dance with Misty Copeland and you can be in a Disney movie and you can do that before you go and do American in Paris. And I was like, freelance is incredible. This is going to keep going forever. But you need that excitement and that 90 and that like, and it was wonderful to follow that. So I went and did American in Paris and did the show. And that was an experience where it was like, I would wake up in the morning. I would go and do a singing lesson. Then we would come back and do an acting lesson. Then we would go and do rehearsals. And I would do the track that I was doing normally in the show, which was not easy at all because they blended two people together because it was the guy who did the most lifting. But I also had an eye on Robbie Fairchild, who was doing the lead, who I had to do once a week. And I was doing, I mean, like 16-hour days. And then we'd do a show in the evening. And... we were on a rake and my back was killing me. It was kind of nuts. And we did it for months. And I eventually got, we got there. I did my first run on stage in front of producers and I was terrible. Like I fell apart. I had never had a moment where I thought I could always trust that I was going to get

SPEAKER_01: 44:19

there.

SPEAKER_03: 44:20

And I, Basically, through the dyslexia and the lines and stuff, I panicked. It was like my brain shook and I just couldn't get stuff out. And I had to go. Afterwards, they were like, we need to get someone else in. Like, this isn't working. You're not going to do this role that I'd left EMB for after 12 years and all safety and all everything. So I remember going and I spoke to the team and I said, look, give me a week. Give me one more go. I now know what it feels like. And I know that I can do this. Just let me, please. And they were like, okay. They gave me another go. I delivered. We got on. And I had another amazing experience where I was then the lead in a West End musical at Dominion Theatre, dancing, singing, acting, doing all those things together. that I kind of knew were there in the back of me somewhere that I wanted to get out. So it was, yeah, it was an amazing experience.

SPEAKER_00: 45:25

It's an extraordinary experience. But from my point of view, Max, you've always had that equipment. That's what you discussed at the beginning of the conversation about, I did all this, and it's about believing in yourself and coming through adversity. And look, it's extraordinary what you've done with that. And I remember... I can't remember what year it is. I'm sure you remind me. You also danced in Matthew Bourne Swan Lake and I just sat there crying like a bitch. I did. I was just like, oh my God, it's insane. That was the

SPEAKER_03: 45:55

same experience. That was the same. I'd never done that level of contemporary in that style. So I spent the first couple of months being totally rubbish dancing And now I've kind of made a habit out of this. I know I'm going to be shit at this. I'm going to be rubbish for a while. And I'm just going to sit in the discomfort and be humble and sort of laugh it off and have terrible night's sleep sometimes because you just can't see that you're going to get through. And then just trusting that you are going to adapt eventually because I've got enough in the toolkit and there's enough there in order to adapt to the situation and again matthew born swan lake was like we did 18 months around the world being the swan it was i mean that one really was amazing before we went into lockdown and the world went to shit and everything changed but the that journey again was like oh like i i literally can't believe i'm doing this but yeah he just you follow the goodies

SPEAKER_00: 47:04

It's extraordinary. And I think you've kind of said it and people that want to be in this industry generally and dance, you are going to have these horrific moments and where the body's not giving what you think you've trained for and the discomfort you've got to sit in it. And then you get glory moments and you've had many. And part of the reason why I sat there watching you weep is because, A, I love that. That's the reason why I started dancing. Fuming that I've never got to dance the role because I clearly wasn't good enough. But I knew all the hard work and- You know the journey. But the decision to take the leap is harder than people think. Because one thing, the rest, the reality is, is if you stop for that long and you jump from a company, which is permanent, trying to get back into a company is very, very difficult. So you had to make it work and it was amazing.

SPEAKER_03: 48:00

You've changed your mindset. You can't, really go back like i've been out for nine years now people are like well would you know would you go back and i'm like i am so far away from going back that that is not it's not even an option like you you just yeah you develop into something else

SPEAKER_00: 48:22

And you've done, you know, a nutcracker in the four rounds, which was extraordinary. By the way, you need to text Misty in Tarasco on the podcast. I am trying to talk to her agent. She's ignoring me. But that was a whole, again, that's such a different world of production. Like that must have scratched several inches of yours of the acting and the cameras and the, how, what was that like as an experience? I mean, it was ridiculous. Just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03: 48:51

It was ridiculous. Like, I mean, I got the trailer and you get paid. I mean, as an EMB dancer, you're not like scraping the barrel, but you're also not a highly paid person. And for like the first time I got like a chunk of money that I'd come across using exactly the same skills that I'd always had just instantly. because I jumped in a different place. And we had Sergei Polunin flying around this stadium-sized place that was covered in different worlds and colours and suites and snow. And it was as epic as you... I mean, I've done a lot of film and TV now, and I've never been in a space that was so epic. Yeah, it was amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 49:42

So extraordinary. Yeah. It's so mad. And you had everyone that was anyone in this thing. It was insane. But this is kind of leaning to the, you're going into more acting and more TV and film and directing. And how's that working now for you? I don't know, you're leaning into it really hard and you're doing lots of mixed roles, aren't you? You're Bridgerton, name check. You know, you're doing all this amazing stuff. How's this new chapter, so chapter, let's say three, of many. What's

SPEAKER_03: 50:14

it like? It kind of is chapter three. So I, I've always loved, I mean, watching films, TV stories, as I, as I've already said, like I, I love theater and I like the live energy, but I also genuinely have always had an interest in film and TV. And I'd heard lots of stories from my parents because they work in film and TV. It was always something that was like, yeah, And when lockdown happened, going into lockdown is awful. Trauma. I was like, I'd just come off being the swan stranger for 18 months. And then suddenly it was like, I was locked in my own living room. And I just, the contrast, we're talking about being adaptive. Like I didn't adapt very well. It was super rough and hard. Anyway, film and TV. So I thought this is the best time to get into film and TV. because there's nothing else going on. So this is the obvious point to go hard on this. And I was like, so you just get in and you meet people. It would be the same process as theatre and ballet, and it definitely isn't. A whole different beast. And it's really, really hard as an industry. So I was like, okay, I'm going to be an extra. So I was like, we'll start right at the bottom because you literally have no idea what's going on. And we'll go and be an extra. And I had to rent a car to get to set

SPEAKER_01: 51:47

at

SPEAKER_03: 51:48

five in the morning. And I did it over and over again. And it was the only stuff that was available for like nine months or something. So I sat in wet tents in the middle of the night and in the morning and stood at the back and held my thing and But you get to see the movie stars and you get to watch and you get to go, right, hang on, I have no idea how this works. The whole system, like theatre, I walk in, I know, you know, all the words, you know, all the people, you know what they do, you know, it's a very familiar world. So I very quickly was like, actually what I need here is to really understand what the fuck is going on before I try and conquer this because there is– It's a really different beast and there's no moving up like through a hierarchy. You get employed as what you are and you do the short gig and you're done. So I then went and I did courses in things that would be useful. So gun work, fight work, wire work. And this is all sort of, you're just paying out for it. I went and did a stunt course. I went to National Film and Television School, the directing course. I did a month intensive working directing actors. So you're taking it from all different angles. Then I was like, who are the choreographers? We contact the choreographers. We go, I'm a dancer, but I'm also now working in TV and film and this and that. And I made a link with a wonderful guy called Jack Murphy, who... is from a sort of national theatre-y background, and he was an actor. And they have the same sort of classical integrity as ballet. So it was like we were talking the same language, but he was working in historical dance in TV. And something just went, I know that. I know that more than these other freelance people. I know how to make this look classical. And I have like a period drama look. I learned very quickly. I look good in a period drama and I look like either a policeman or I'm in the army. That's kind of the casting bracket. And you go, right, so how do we utilize this? Do we take headshots where we look like these things? Do we make a showreel where we look like these things? We target the bit that will help us get in. Basically, Jack was like, come to the audition for Bridgerton. And I haven't done ballroom worlds. And I was like, here we go. This is a whole other world that I have no idea about. But we went in again. And then we did a ball. And we did another ball. And suddenly, I was starting to learn a whole new technique again. And then you start to enjoy it as you know more. And then you... And... suddenly I know what's happening on set around me and I'm watching what Jack's doing and he says, come and assist. So then I'm hearing the conversations and I'm hearing how the producers put things together and what they need and how long things take. And suddenly the world makes sense. Then it's like, oh, I know what I can offer here. And I know this new technique and I can fuse some of the ballet and some of the theatre and all of that with it. So then I'm assisting him making up this new art form and learning how to teach actors. And I love actors and I love the stories and the scripts. And you start to see possibilities. And then suddenly, serendipitously, there is a ballet in season three. And I go, well, that's me. There's no one else right now who now has this skill set and understands this world and understands I can do that. And I just went, I'm doing that. And we made this ballet. I mean, he choreographed it and I helped him out with various moves and he directed the movement. And we made this very interesting piece that was full of intention and story to a level that I'd not actually done before. And that was wonderful. And then on the day, I shot it with Ciara, who's a very good friend who I used to live with, Ciara Robinson. And we did this beautiful pas de deux. And when it came out, the viewing figures, so bearing in mind I've spent my entire life on stage, I've done shows around the world. I'm nearly 40 years old and I'm still going. But the Bridgerton viewing figures dwarf anything by like a 25-fold thing. But yeah, it's amazing that you get to that point, but only when you have conquered... world's worth of work. It's not just a lucky thing. You have to be the right person for that thing at that right time. And TV, just circling back to getting into TV, TV is very like that. You have to be the one in the whole world in order to make it happen, which is why it's so hard to become a thing in TV. Saying that, I really want to be a thing in TV.

SPEAKER_00: 57:23

I have no doubt. And I think what you described before you got opportunity is you threw yourself in again. You didn't just do one acting class. You were like, I'm going to do all these things. And that reflects Max from being a young Max.

SPEAKER_03: 57:37

Multiple acting classes and stuff on Zoom and stuff at Accenture and stuff at Access Community. And you find the names and then you just go and do them.

SPEAKER_00: 57:46

and I think that that's a good takeaway for people listening that is remotely interested in any of those is you've got to commit and it's sometimes on your own and no one's responding it's bloody hard work but if you really want to do you've got to fully commit because they are looking for that one person in that moment in the world and you have to be ready and a lot of the time is the opportunities come when you feel unprepared but actually you can deliver because you've got the Things in the toolkit, right? You've got to

SPEAKER_03: 58:15

have the toolkit.

SPEAKER_00: 58:16

And

SPEAKER_03: 58:19

what I'm finding in TV is if there's even a single person that you go, actually, they might be better than me. You have to look at it completely objectively, like business-minded decisions. If you were a team of producers and you've got to take a risk on a certain human, am I the solution to their problem? Am I the one? And if I'm not the one, then I'm not going to get it. And it's that simple. It's nothing to do with how much you want it. It's nothing to do with how good you are. It's nothing to do with any of that. If you are not that perfect person for that specific thing at that specific time, then you're not going to get it. So it's cracking that code, and that is a very different code than theatre.

SPEAKER_00: 59:08

Brutal.

SPEAKER_03: 59:09

It's just

SPEAKER_00: 59:11

wild. So you start out in a... you know, relatively challenging sector. You jump into an even more challenging one. What are you thinking? But you're just like, no, no, it's fine. I'm going to do it. It's all good. That's your attitude

SPEAKER_03: 59:26

though,

SPEAKER_00: 59:27

isn't

SPEAKER_03: 59:27

it? You just keep going. I'm not, if I'm not going to go away, I have the rest of my life to, to make a way through. So making a way through the outcome is not the thing. I also enjoy the process of working out. Yeah. and getting it all wrong. I've never come across such a tough nut to crack. It is killing me. But as a result, I now have a very good camera and I'm doing videography work and I know how to edit and I'm writing my own stuff and I'm going to do a short film at the end of this year. And I like the creative and the directing and I'm choreographing things for events and all these things make you, it's who you become. So by the time you get there, it's like, yeah, it's obvious that it should have been. But it's all the things you learn and all the survival skills along the way and all the new skills and all of that. And that's how I keep going. It's because it's always something new and something to explore and something to... That's the motivation. It's not, I really, really want it and I'm not getting it. I can't get there. It's that there is... I mean, I get pulled all over the place. You go motion capture. I've done a motion capture course. So you go and do creatures and movement and improv. And then you go, is it that? Maybe I want to go that way. And then you're like, no, but it should be acting. Also should be correct. But it's all visual based character acting stuff. That's what I love. And the through line of all of this is, And my career so far has been that. And I have no plans to deviate from that at all because that's what I love.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:18

For the moment or chapter four.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:21

It's always an obvious thing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:23

You'll be like,

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:23

it was always obvious.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:26

But I think what you described there is something that is very consistent with a lot of people that I collaborate with and a lot of people that are on this podcast is that you have to commit to doing all this other stuff to actually build the true version of you and understand the process, dig deep, which gives you a respect for the craft and the talent around you. And it will morph into what it's supposed to be. And that is painful when you need to put, you know, bread on the table, all those kinds of things, but you can, extraordinary things can happen from really committing because you ain't going to go and be a banker. Yeah. You need to be in this sector and that's what gives you fuel and makes you happy. You have done a lot, Max. I just wondered without taking it down a notch, is there anything that you feel like you, there's an opportunity that passed you by or anything like that, that you, that you remember something you like?

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:26

Lots of opportunities that I wish I'd got that I hadn't. They, they, I think the honest answer is no. Good

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:40

answer.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:41

Because if it's something I want to do, I lock on and I give it everything I've got. And if I don't get there and I don't get it, then I'm okay because I went for it. And generally, there's nothing I've turned away from that I've really wanted on a half-hearted whim. I literally don't know how to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:04

Look at that story you told us about American in Paris and how many times you had to go for it, right? Yeah. So on that note, people that want to become a classical dancer or a dancer or an actor or a director, they are looking at our world and it's blowing up because there's basically no funding and all that crazy. What tips and advice would you give someone that's really wanting to do this but maybe doesn't really know where to start? Anything you would advise?

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:31

Yeah. I would advise as a freelancer, because it's kind of freelancer or there's company. Company, you need to be doing it every single day. you need to go to class every single day because those dancers in company, if you're not in company, are doing it every single day. So the only way you're going to look like one of them is to do the same as them, which is very hard to do, I realize, on no money and all of that sort of thing. But you need to dance your ass off if you want to get into company because that's what people in company are doing. So that's one. Freelancers, I would say everything, that is a skill of yours you need filmed on a showreel. I spend my life making different showreels and putting together collections of video. Everyone in a freelance world wants to see that you're a solution before you can show them what you can do. You're not even going to get in the room if you don't have it. So if you choreograph, you need it recorded, you need to. You actually need it recorded. You need everything now is digital. You have got to have reels and videos for everything. Even if you don't even think it's a skill, you need to get it on a reel.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:00

And Kit, everyone's got a smartphone. It's not like we're in the 1990s on the Nokia. It

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:06

needs to be the glossiest thing in the world. But when someone goes, okay, send me your stuff, you need to be able to send your stuff instantly. Freelance is instant. The next thing you do is send them your stuff off your phone. It should be like, because you

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:24

miss the opportunity if you can't. Yeah, don't make them wait, I think the message is. So we're nearly at the end of the conversation. There's two bits left, which normally everyone's like freaks out because I'm asking them, like, did you read the notes? So this is your opportunity to talk about, is there any like bugbears or pet peeves you want to just talk about and get off your chest? Yeah. Come on, give us a good

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:48

one. Loads of moaning with no action. Oh, yeah. Artists kill me with the amount of moaning. And then I'm like, so what have you done about that? Or what are you going to change? Or who are you going to speak to? No answers. So I'm like, you're just filling the air with waffle and moaning. And that drives me fucking nuts.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:11

Crack on with it, people, as Mac said. I'm... And the last one, so not trying to get you into trouble or anything like that, but I always ask every guest to make a cultural confession. So that could be a little secret, a guilty pleasure that no one knows about, anything you like within the realms of not getting you fired, probably, probably best.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:32

I have a very large 400 litre fish tank that I like fish. I watch fish in the morning with my coffee. That's it. Weird little trait. I have the ability to hold a Haagen-Dazs tub of ice cream and watch something and just look down and I've eaten a whole lot. So that's kind of like my celebratory thing is I'm allowed to eat a whole tub of Haagen-Dazs as well as drink lots of wine. But as far as a cultural confession goes, I'm

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:06

not sure. Well, you know, I think you've, if you know Max and you see his physique, the ice cream clearly works. And a fish is a good mental health thing, right? Create space for the fish and the ice cream.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:22

I go for a walk every day in the morning regardless of what I'm doing. That's a habit-based thing. I don't know if that's a good confession. But that, for me, keeps me going. If I don't do that, I get miserable.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:36

We don't want you miserable, do we? We want you happy. And I've rarely seen you miserable because you are full of energy and happy Max.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:44

I try. I try. I know. I

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:47

know. Amongst being a fabulous artist. Max, thank you so much for doing this. I really, really appreciate it. You're awesome. And I know lots of people are going to be inspired and take a lot away from this conversation. So thank you for taking time out of your wonderful day to share with us. Oh, thank you very much. It's been an absolute

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:05

pleasure.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:08

Thanks for listening to this episode of Before the Applause. Please do tell everyone about this podcast and stay connected with us across all the usual social media platforms by searching at Before Applause. If you've got any burning questions, want to share your own insights, want to recommend a guest or be one yourself, then we'd love to hear from you.