Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to this new episode of Before the Applause with me your host, david Watson. In this episode, I talk to Dan Shipton, extraordinary creative director, story maker and experienced creator. You might not think you know who he is or his work, but I guarantee you've seen it. Dan is behind some of the most spectacular spectacles you've ever witnessed, in his own right or as part of the magic-making team Black School Creative, from the London 2012 ceremonies to Saturday night takeaway with Anton Deck, the X Factor and unforgettable live performances for Ellie Goulding at the Royal Variety, Sam Ryder's extraordinarily second place at Eurovision to global stages like the Joy Awards and, most recently, jade's iconic performance at the Brit Awards for Angel of my Dreams. We talk about the winding path that led him from training into technical theatre to crafting some of the biggest live spectacles of our time, and why every show, no matter the scale, is always about the story.

Speaker 1: 1:02

Dan reflects on the transient nature of entertainment, the importance of legacy and how collaboration fuels creativity. But this conversation isn't just about the big moments. It's also about integrity, teamwork and the passion it takes to keep creating show after show after show in a competitive and ever-changing industry. From legacy to innovation, story to spectacle. This episode is a celebration of the creative force behind the performances you'll never forget. Grab a cup of something nice and join us as we discover more. Before the applause Dan, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:39

It's lovely to be on. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:41

Oh, thank you for doing this. I know we tried to make this happen for season one, um, but diaries were just challenging and, let's face it, um, it's because you're creating magic around the world and way, way busier than I am yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:55

I'm glad we finally made it happen finally and this is going to be a brilliant conversation so you embody everything this podcast is about and that is why I kept hounding you to be a brilliant conversation. So you embody everything this podcast is about and that is why I kept hounding you. To be honest, the final product and experience that everyone gets to enjoy the spectacles is part of what we do, and you're very much part of that machine which is creating that vision, working with all these crazy mad people to come up with these moments of spectacle, and that's why I wanted to talk to you about that, because I think you reflect it really well. We met in London 2012, which makes me feel sick because that was like 13, 14 years ago.

Speaker 2: 2:40

I feel like it was just yesterday, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Yeah, Sometimes I'm like oh, it was yesterday.

Speaker 1: 2:44

Yeah, yeah yeah, quite a lot has changed in the world, but part of my job there I had many little hats on, but one of it was to capture behind the scenes of how things created, and I think you know when I used to do the circuit and presentations, I'd be like, yeah, we rattled off like 60 000 images and 400 hours worth of footage, but predominantly was behind the scenes and you featured in it and your work quite a lot, um, which is quite interesting, and I know we'll get on to 2012 with the whole experience. But what's it like knowing you were part of that major moment and we've just like, I think about it quite a lot, do you?

Speaker 2: 3:27

yeah, it was amazing, wasn't it? And I think it's such a legacy to leave behind, and I think you know, just having had children quite recently, over the last few years, it makes you think about what you leave behind, and I think for me, um my 20s, I was working in tv, we were working in light entertainment and those shows you'd literally rehearse them in a week and they'd be up eight million people would watch them, 10 million people watch them, but then they literally put in the bin and you move on to the next. It's all quite transient in a beautiful way, and I love that. I didn't. I, I trained in theater, but I quite quickly realized that repetition of theater wasn't really for me. So, actually, that my personality needs that transient nature and I love that moment.

Speaker 2: 4:12

And then we're on and then, um, then you start to panic because you're like what am I actually leaving behind? I'm like creating, I'm creating people magic and making people happy. But what am I actually leaving behind? And then you do something like London 2012 and you realize that it's not just the legacy of the shows, but that whole thing was like a, like a massive shift in the way that that London, the UK, the positivity of our nation felt and um it just made me feel really proud likewise and I still feel that, um, I meet lots of people in the jobs that I do and the one consistent thing that they're interested in is probably being in the area that you're in and actually, what I found is probably one of the most well, the least spoken about areas.

Speaker 1: 5:01

You don't get the airtime. Maybe this is because people like you or you know colleagues in behind the stage or don't want to be the public face, and that mystique is there. So hopefully through this conversation, people will get a bit of a glimpse into it and maybe get some inspiration from you, because I know you've done a lot and I think you can give some really good insight. So you've been a stage manager for tv for some of the biggest networks and channels. You've done props and coordination for London 2012. You've done take that tours Sochi Winter Olympics. You've made oh, bafta winning let's put that BAFTA winning creative director. You've done Eurovision, which is like ridiculous pinnacle with Sam Ryder second place. Yeah, and I love that moment when I saw you on TV enjoying that moment.

Speaker 1: 5:53

It was so special, special. And then you've been building Black School Creative, which is your company, for quite a long time, about 10 years, something like that yeah, 10 next week happy birthday next week.

Speaker 1: 6:06

Oh yeah, that's quite a lot and I've given you my little summary of that. But I just wondered if how you would describe and I'm going to say in a nutshell what you do, because I don't feel anything that I can say does it justice or really reflects the nuances of what you have done and what you do now well, I think what I've done and what I do now is probably two different things.

Speaker 2: 6:27

What I do now as a creative director and show designer and show creator, show maker essentially we were talking about this yesterday and how do you sum it all up? And probably show maker feels like the kind of be all by the summary of everything, because ultimately, I'm here to make shows and that can be for pop stars, it can be for brands, it can be for corporate events, it can be for anything, but ultimately we love telling stories and we love creating spectacles and we love making people feel something that they never forget and those experiences and all of the things we were talking about with like legacy and those moments when all of the stars align. You get all of the things that we create and control coming together and then it all just happens to be at the right moment, in the zeitgeist of the nation or whoever's watching, and they all feel something oh my God, god, it's the most amazing thing so that I just feel really lucky to do my job. And then you know where I've kind of, what I've been and through and done and whatever I mean, I've always it's always been about creating something, but I think it's really hard when you're coming out fresh out of drama school to go in and just be like, oh, I'm a director now and I'm going to just create and you're all going to listen to what I'm going to say and you're all going to follow me. It doesn't really work like that. So you've got to build that journey and I chose to do it from a technical theater stage management point of view and, you know, luckily, went into TV and I love the kind of glossy nature of the TV and all that kind of fast paced stuff. That suited me really well.

Speaker 2: 8:06

And then you know, get to your late 20s and you realize that maybe you're hitting a ceiling and you want to move on. And then you know there's so much in your career that as you can be as good or whatever as you are, but there's always going to be outside influences that are going to play into that as well. London hadn't won the Olympics yes, I'm sure there would have been something else that would have taken me on to my next part of my career. But absolutely London was a big influence. But then, similarly, if I hadn't have met Kim Gavin, who was take that's creative director, he came in to do one of the shows with us at ITV and and he became my mentor in many ways for many years and I looked up to him and he and I got on really well and I and I just saw this amazing man doing amazing things and I just learned so much from him and then obviously now I'm lucky enough to be doing it myself in my own, different way. You know, obviously, kim's background's choreography. My background is technical, so we apply our notions of creativity in different ways, but nevertheless it was all very inspiring and take. That led to doing stadium stuff and stadium stuff led to getting the job on London 2012.

Speaker 2: 9:14

London 2012 led to Sochi. If Sochi hadn't happened, would I have set up a company and driven a different route? And I had set up a company practically because I was moving to Russia and tax and all this kind of stuff and whatever, and I got told, just set up a company, it'll be easy. So I did and that company just happened to grow into this amazing creative machine that makes people very happy and excited and and I just get to enjoy my job for a living. So it's all. Like you know, there's so much influence in life that you don't, you can't plan, but there's so much you can do to make the right choices at the right moment, and as long as you're going with something that's going to make you feel passionate every day, I think you're on to a winner really.

Speaker 1: 9:59

Right, you hit it here first, folks. This is what I keep telling you, even if it is hard. You kind of mentioned your training.

Speaker 2: 10:06

You went to Guildhall school I did, yeah, guildhall music and drama, and I studied technical theatre, stage management and technical theatre, which was a great grounding for me because on that course, whilst I knew I wanted to be a stage manager, it made me do a half a term in every department. So lighting, sound, costume design, scenic workshop, building things, painting things areas that I was interested in but certainly wouldn't have necessarily seen as part of my career path, but, ironically, they have played massive parts and now, as a director, I was like my lucky stars that I did that course, because, whilst at that point I didn't know I was going to be a director, now every day I speak to and direct people from every single one of those departments and being able to understand their processes and relate to them and have conversations which are more meaningful than me just saying wishy-washy. You know, we've all sat in rooms with other directors and they're just like oh, you know, I just want it to be a bit like that and I'm like what I want to do is to go, I want it to be like that and this is how you're going to do it, and and and also then collaborate with other creatives that are specialists in those fields, to challenge them and they can challenge me and we can create something which, hopefully, as a product, is even further advanced, and we get asked all the time by our clients for things that have never been seen before technical innovation driving. You know what is being seen and done and forward, and so you know you're constantly being challenged to do that, and I think you can only find creative solutions if you understand technical innovation as well. So I'm really glad that I did that course.

Speaker 2: 11:48

I yeah, I loved it was it?

Speaker 1: 11:49

was there a? Did so a lot of like vocational? You go and move and live away when you're younger, or was it? Did you move away or was it?

Speaker 2: 11:57

yeah, I grew up in Bristol, um and I left at 18 and moved to London and um did three years at the drama school and then, you know, was living in East London the whole time. So it was great to get away. And then, whilst we were on the course, you the whole thing wasn't written, it was very much practically putting on shows, but each show you spent time in a specific department, so you saw it from lots of different angles.

Speaker 1: 12:22

Which is pretty incredible, you know, and obviously it's very frustrating seeing lots of courses being removed and you know, a lot of us are very lucky that we had those types of experiences. I agree, yeah, so you come to the end of your course. What was the first paid job course? What was the first paid job? What was the first one?

Speaker 2: 12:40

came to the end of my course. And well, first of all, during my course um, or even before my course, I was doing the National Youth Music Theatre, which is a really great um experience, because it felt like it was somewhere between being a youth kind of like doing youth theatre but then also doing with professionals. So it's like a like a real kind of like doing youth theatre but then also doing it with professionals. So it's like a like a real kind of nice stepping stone. And I can remember Chris, who was the production manager there, when I told him I was going to drama school to do stage, mountain theatre, stage management, he said you won't do theatre, you're going to do TV. And I was like no, I'm not, I not on your Nelly anyway cut to me finishing my a-levels and watching smtv live with anton deck and kat deely and seeing on the credits that it was. They had a stage manager and I was like how can you stage manage a tv show? There's no stage like you know what is that?

Speaker 2: 13:28

I wrote to kate um, it was emma actually at the time she was the assistant stage manager covering kate and I wrote to them and I said look, can I come for some work experience. I went in, I did the 100th SMTV live and you know, as a young 17 year old going into that, seeing this amazingly exciting show with all of these incredible pop stars, everyone doing these really cool things, I was like smitten with TV. Okay, this is quite cool. Um. So when I came to london to do drama school, I kind of tapped them up and I was like, look, I'm here now if you want me to come and help out, I can do it anytime. So I used to bunk drama school on a friday, go in and do all the prop buying and then get it like, turn up at the studios at like 5 am on a saturday morning, do the showsTV Live and See the UK and we'd be in the pub with Ant and Dec by 12. It was fantastic.

Speaker 2: 14:20

An 18 year old kid I was like what a great thing. And that continued. And then Ant and Dec left and we did Saturday Night Takeaway and I was on series two of that. There's loads of Saturday night shows I'd do and it just yeah, it got into my blood a little bit. And so when I graduated I graduated on the Friday and on this Monday I started on the Terry and Gabby show as assistant stage manager with two incredible stage managers, john Lamb and Emma Marshall, and I did maybe like eight months on that show every day doing a live hour long broadcast with fun stuff, different things. Every day was a different thing.

Speaker 2: 15:01

Chris Evans was our exec producer and to see such a prolific, incredible ideas man at work every day and to see how he cut through the noise and you kind of you could all be in an office working out these ideas. And he'd come in for the meeting and he'd be like why the fuck are you doing it like this? Why can't you see that you should be doing like that? And within two minutes the whole thing was flipped on its head. But it was always for the better and you'd all react and it was so exciting, like the best thing to do and then, um, yeah, I did it.

Speaker 2: 15:31

I left that for going straight on to be the assistant stage manager on the on the Royal Variety performance, which had been a show that I'd watched since I was a kid, so that was a bit of a dream. And then from then, I then started stage managing tv shows and I did a show called Hit Me Baby One More Time and Fry TV, and once I started on that train I never stopped and it was just being stage manager on those shows. I think it was good because, um, people liked my approach to stage managing tv shows because a I wanted to be a stage manager and a lot of other stage manager had kind of found that role by accident, the ones that didn't be. I think my approach, having had formal training in it, was a little bit different.

Speaker 1: 16:15

So I kind of maybe, um, yeah, it was a, I don't know it, just people seemed to connect with it and I loved it and off I went it's pretty extraordinary and I'm assuming it's really competitive to get into that space and to be part of live live broadcast is the whole thing in itself right and there is different, but it must be really competitive. Were you even bothered by that? Are we just blind and going for it like everyone could move out the way?

Speaker 2: 16:43

it is really competitive, definitely, um, I mean, and I and I I'm sadly wouldn't necessarily say I recommend it to anyone these days, because tv is well, live tv and the kind of especially the big juggernaut channels that we, you know, know from from from back in the day, like BBC and ITV, they're just not producing, they don't have the money to produce the big shows that were the Saturday Night Entertainment shows. Obviously there's like a massive shift in the way that we all watch TV. Now I don't even have an aerial, like I don't know, like there's very few must, must see appointment to view TV shows. Eurovision might be one in the music, but then I wouldn't even think about watching an award show anymore, apart from the Brit Awards maybe, but quite a lot of it I would just catch up with online the next day and obviously if I'm going to experience a drama or something else, I just watch it on catch up, right. So it's a very different world out there now. So I'm not sure I would, and I just see a lot of my friends out of work, sadly, that still work in tv. So I'm not sure I would recommend it.

Speaker 2: 17:44

But when I was doing it I was kind of like on the tail end, when it was still absolutely a thriving, exciting space to be in and I'm so glad I got to experience it. But, yes, it was very competitive, I guess, for me maintaining I never wanted, I never. I purposefully just stayed in my lane of trying to be as good as I could at my job, doing things efficiently and being passionate and personable and also honorable. I never, and I purposefully tried to keep with in with all the other people that were doing our role so that we didn't undercut each other, because I would never want to win a job because we're cheaper.

Speaker 1: 18:27

Essentially, which is actually a really important thing to take away, for, you know it, it sounds like it's just words, but it's really important because of the way the sector works and all those relationships. So we've discussed that. You've gone on to create your amazing company and you've already spoken about creative ideas and I wondered how do you approach creating ideas, generating ideas, working with other people? To come up Because you already said it and it's one of my pet peeves, to come up because you already said it and it's one of my pet peeves, it's. It's really hard sometimes, when you work with people that aren't truly creative, to translate what they mean and deliver something. I just wondered what your approach is with Black Skull. How do you work with clients?

Speaker 2: 19:09

I mean, uh, I kind of came back from Sochi and I realized I kind of said to Ross, my husband, who is also one of the business partners of Black Skull, I said, look, I really want to go after being a director now I think that's my next thing. And he is a producer by trade and he wanted to go and one of his ambitions was to produce a massive ceremony. So he went off to Baku for the year to do the European opening and closing ceremonies, the European Games opening ceremonies, and that was amazing for him. I stayed back here and I was like all right, let's try and make a go of being creative director. And in that time we also met Jay Ravel, who's our other business partner for the original three of us. There's now more of us in Blacks Gold, but that was the original three. For the original three of us. There's now more of us in black skull, but that was the original three.

Speaker 2: 19:59

And after a few months of us all kind of doing stuff, we all realized that we all had a very similar thought process. We had a very similar drive, passion and in we were inspired by a lot of things that were similar, but also we were all different and I think what we realized quite quickly is that as a, as a team, we're stronger together. Um, we often say a team is always a good starting point because you can celebrate together when things are good, but also commiserate together or pick people, pick each other up when things are bad, but nevertheless you can also spring and test ideas off each other, you can challenge in a very safe space. And so I think, as we've developed as a team, we would get our creative briefing from a, from whoever our client is, pop star, brand whoever and our worst briefs are when they just say, oh, do whatever, do whatever you want, do whatever you want, because you'd think that was the best, but actually it really isn't, because what we need is some parameters, because as soon as we have parameters, we can start building out the world that we want to create. We then automatically research, we start to find what even more parameters and we start to build this essentially story, and for us it's always about finding a story. Every, every one of our shows or performances or whatever you want, they've always got a story there, and sometimes that story is very strong and it's at the forefront of the way that it's translated to the audience and an audience member would watch it all and kind of understand the story. Sometimes that story doesn't even get told to the client, but we know we have it and that means that we've always got an anchor. And every time we get then down the line, as we're creating this, the performance, if we've got a decision to make and we're umming and ahhing about it, we can always return to the original story that we created. And that story doesn't have to be like a beginning, middle and end it sometimes does. Sometimes it's just like a really strong theme that's been inspired by something that's part of the original creative brief or whatever. But it's really helpful for us to have that anchor.

Speaker 2: 22:09

And essentially, once we've got our idea, we obviously know that we're gonna have to create the world. So what does it look like? We start by mood boarding that up and from our research we can then create an overall look of like a concept world. We can then present an idea as a, as a pitch deck to the client and say this is what we're thinking, version one. It's kind of like all our ideas placed in this is how it could be. What do you think? We kind of use that as like a little bit of a test for them and normally at that point they'll say, oh, we love this bit, we don't. That doesn't really resonate with us, or could you change that and whatever? Get that feedback and then we keep kind of keep using that creative bible as a, as our anchor, and then we'll keep refining it and then when we get to a certain point we'll then draw the world. So I, I draw you sketch up and CAD to draw out what our stage could look like and what our environment looks like. We also have Black Skull Studio, which is our kind of visual side, so they create all our screen content and design work. So Paul, who's our business partner on that side, will then start to think about you know, quite often so many of our surfaces in our world are video or projection. So he'll then think about how that texturing happens to really support the narrative and how that's going to um kind of translate.

Speaker 2: 23:31

Um, obviously, if there's music quite often our shows have got music attached to it. So naturally we're going to then take the ideas and we're going to try and place them on a timeline. Usually the music gives us the backbone for that timeline. So we would break down a song. You know, normally a traditional Western music song is verse, chorus, verse, chorus, middle eight, double chorus at the end. So you can kind of use that structure.

Speaker 2: 23:55

But when we work at the moment we do a lot in Saudi and when we create the Joy Awards we run our fourth season of the Joy Awards we are creating ideas so far in advance, because it's such a big show that we don't even know who the artists are. So when we create those ideas, it's the same process, but we don't have the music. So what we do at that point is we go okay, this is the intro reveal. Look, this is the next build, this is the next build. And then the finale moment is this because you know that your spectacle has got to have builds throughout, so you can kind of we talk about phases. At that point we can do anything, really, yeah, and then um, after that we then think about all the departments so how does? And?

Speaker 2: 24:34

And our scripting, our script that we use as creative directors is slightly different.

Speaker 2: 24:40

Uh, like a performer's script.

Speaker 2: 24:43

If you're maybe giving a text in theater, it's all about the language.

Speaker 2: 24:46

For us, we have a spread.

Speaker 2: 24:48

It's essentially a spreadsheet of a script where every department that we are coordinating and directing has their own column.

Speaker 2: 24:55

So on one side is all about time, what is the structure of the narrative that we're telling? It then has a creative description about what we're trying to see as a general look and feel, and then every department has their own individual column. And so if you're the lighting designer, you can go through and think okay, at the middle, eight need dan or jay or ross, or the team wants it to be a blue look with a lot of beams all focused to the artist, and then there'll be a core and then they're like what's the choreography doing? At that point they can then jump to the choreographers column and there's a note there that says all of the performers will be in together in a box in the center. Done so, you can literally map out the entire show and it's and for us it's so helpful to do that because all all throughout our process is about going from the big idea and getting more and more macro, macro, macro. So by the time we turn up on site, we just have to do it.

Speaker 1: 25:49

It's like that and everyone knows every single detail it's pretty epic and it's quite a process which you've honed over time and and so obviously the output that you guys do is insane, and I'll make sure I share links to your work because it is insane. But something that I've noticed and I'm sure you notice as well, obviously is that when it comes to artists or brands or organizations, you end up having a very long standing relationship with them. You know so, if you just take music artists, for example, you've worked on virtually everything, little mix and then the solo thing and you just got guys just worked on Jade Thurbell's performance of the Brits. You're always evolving it, but there's a relationship there. I'm assuming you know that, obviously. But what's? Why is that? What's the magic? Is it because you are always pushing for something different? But building that relationship too? Because I see it quite a lot in the industry. They'll bring in one production company. You've got one show, you're done. It's quite disposable and I think that's why I think you guys are quite unique. You are building these.

Speaker 2: 26:58

They are pretty long-term relationships yeah, relationships are the thing that, um, creativity drives uh, best, I think. Personally, I think, um, the more we, we always say and we and don't get me wrong, we do do one-offs there are, there is as much as we have long-standing relationships. We probably have double the amount of individual relationships, because things can be quite transient and there's all sorts of things that play into that. But the most successful projects that we do are where we have an enduring relationship. And essentially that's because I often think that we are almost like the ghost writers for our, for our artists I say artists or brands or whatever you want to be we are there to take their, their, their thoughts and then enable those and extend them beyond anyone's wildest dreams. And we want to make the person or the thing that's at the center of our show absolutely shine. That's our whole reason for doing it. The whole raison d'etre is to make the brand or the artist or whoever it is, the superstar. So, whilst you can do that on a one-off, absolutely, if we have a relationship with somebody, something we can get inside their heads and we can start to make decisions that feel truly them. And when you, when you, when you understand something or someone truly, and you're asking you know, you're asking jade to stand up and perform in front of however many millions of people and you're asking her to sell an idea that you've kind of come up with together. If it doesn't feel authentic to them, um, then it's just going to probably be people, the art, the audience do see through all of that. Yeah, if you know the, if you have a relationship with someone or something, then you kind of get under the skin of it a little bit more and therefore you, we can make our best choices to make the whole world authentically them. So, yeah, I absolutely we are.

Speaker 2: 29:19

We do definitely feel that relationships are best. We also feel that you know the synergy of our team because we work day in, day out and have done for 10 years together. There's um a real trust and I feel like that when you have the same relationship with a long-term relationship with artists or brands, you you want them to trust you to make the right decisions and in this very fast moving world that we all work in, sometimes you can't. You've just got to make decisions there, and then, and when you make those decisions, we as directors are forever putting our neck on the line because it might be the right decision. Sometimes it's not the right decision. Either way, it doesn't matter, because you've made the, you've made what you believe is the right choice and then. And so, if you understand what you think the artists would want as well, if you don't have time to check, check it with them.

Speaker 1: 30:07

You can hopefully get the right thing to sort and the reason why I kind of bring that up is I get a lot of questions around moving around in the industry and I am agreeing with you that it is very transactional and it can be transient. But actually it's worth taking the time to lean into these relationships, build your experience and that trust, and it's really valuable to do that Well. Even though there's loads of noise and there might be 50 opportunities, it doesn't mean you should always take those individual things and work within. I think also.

Speaker 2: 30:41

Yeah, I agree, I also think it's a, you know, it's the luxury of where you are in your careers, right, you know, initially we were just taking whatever we could and then things would last like. You know, things that were supposed to be one-offs, like ellie golding early doors when when I did that first performance with her on the Royal Variety performance was supposed to be a one-off thing, and then suddenly you're with her for two years. Same with Olly Murs, same with Little Mix. That ended up a four-year thing Again. You know, they're all like lovely things that you know.

Speaker 2: 31:11

But also, I think it's also important that, um, you give your clients space to be, um, to challenge that creativity and understand when they make it. They need to shift and sometimes it's really sad because you do have to part ways. Yeah, and whilst we, you know, might have spent a couple of years with someone they might have done that might have, you know, an album campaign for an artist is generally a two year cycle and they might just kind of get to the end of that and it's nothing you've done wrong, but they might just fancy a change. Yeah, and you know, it's the same like I. You know, I want, I like buying. At the moment, I buy my clothes from one shop and I really like their style, but then actually I fancy something different. And because what we're doing is our creativity is so subjective, those little shifts do happen, and that's fine, you know, as much as I wish they didn't, because obviously it's like losing a friend or a relationship, you know, but they do happen.

Speaker 1: 32:14

And you kind of led me into my the next question really nicely. Um, and it's about industry changing and evolving it's. We're in such a moment where you've got to keep feeding the beast with content. The attention to detail is different, you know. You've spoken about the spectacle. There's an expectation on you and you probably have on yourself to keep pushing it and not just doing LED screen in a rotating stage. I wondered you know, you and the team, how do you continue to do that, Particularly if it doesn't exist? I wondered how you make sure you're making sure black school are innovative and, like you say, pushing clients so they don't just ask you for a backhaul and a bit of a light it's.

Speaker 2: 32:58

I mean, yeah, it's hard. I think, um, we just kind of keep on top of what everyone else is doing, what you you're seeing around you, and I suppose, like you know, it's the usual things of like just scrolling Instagram and seeing you know what is in the museums and all that usual shit that, um, kind of inspire those things. I think what you then have to do is not just be inspired by other creatives and what's already there. You have to be able to. I suppose the key for us is we look at innovation across the world. It could be in the like, I don't know, in the car industry or in the whatever industry, but they might have something that's really cool. And then you can look at that and go, actually, do you know, if I brought that in and I I've slightly switched this around that's going to be something really cool for, um, you know, for our entertainment industry. That would. That would allow us to, quite often, with those shifts, those technical, technical shifts, you can't shift 100% of everything, but actually, if you know video, you know you, if you keep maybe like 75% of the thing what you know, but then you just add that 25% extra shift, people are like, oh fuck, ultimately we are we're.

Speaker 2: 34:13

You know, technology is our device to be a modern day magician. That's how I think about it. Ultimately, what you want to, we, we never, ever will want to do a show where we put technology first.

Speaker 2: 34:24

Technology should enable us to confuse the audience and make them feel that, oh my god, how did they fucking do that?

Speaker 2: 34:32

Feel like, because when they, when they feel that awe and wonder, as we often call it, then they're just sat there going, oh my god, I just don't, I just like what. Have I more of my eyes just seen? You know? That's why I never like technology where I'm asking an audience to wear a set of goggles or whatever, because it's a barrier and it automatically says if you've got to put these glasses on, that's how we're doing this trick. If you can work out a way of using that technology in a way that surprises the audience and they genuinely are like I genuinely do not know how that is happening, but what I know is I'm feeling this visceral reaction to it, and then you add the music into that and the artistry of your performer, you're probably onto a very good thing is how I often think about it and I know this is going to be a hard question, but and you've done so much stuff does is there a favorite thing you've done of all the things?

Speaker 2: 35:27

you've done. I mean there are, like you know, there's, there's always moments isn't there. I mean, you know, I think for me personally on my career path, the Ellie Goulding projection dress, which was now 10 years ago, but it was so fresh at the time and when I did it I did it at the Royal Variety Performance, which was my stomping ground as a stage manager. They'd given me a bit of free will to come in as a good vibe, essentially to come back as a director, and they allowed me to kind of really push them as a production team to allow me to do that. And when we rehearsed that for the first time in a random 45 minute rehearsal, there genuinely wasn't a dry eye in the house and I and I had all of my colleagues that I'd worked with for so many years like literally coming up to me, hugging me, telling me that they just couldn't believe what their eyes had seen, and that felt very, very good. I mean there's loads, but then I suppose you could jump to the Sam Ryder win and then the subsequent dream of being able to bring Eurovision back to our country and then also being asked to be lead creative director across the whole project and standing there, knowing that we're creating that on behalf of ukraine and we're bringing our two nations together in liverpool which is bloody amazing, and I never, even a million years, thought that we were creating something that would get me a bafta. But lo and behold, that was a really nice chair in the cape. I didn't even like at the time we were just making the right choices, for that felt right for us and for ukraine and look what it. You know what we did, you know, so that felt really good.

Speaker 2: 37:03

And then I'd also add, actually probably jade at the brits, and that also, um, was really special because, you know, coming back out of fatherhood, having had two years of kind of like part timing and really focusing on our family, I really feel, you know, I always I can't you kind of feel like am I a little bit left behind? You know, like whatever, does anybody really want me? And then connecting with Jade again and really like reinvigorating that gorgeous relationship and that creativity and working with her to devise such a performance again, didn't even think that you just kept your head down and you just made those choices and in fact, our ideas never changed from the first two hour long telephone call that I did with jade or zoom call. The idea never changed all the way along brit awards they were.

Speaker 2: 37:53

Everyone was really supportive, but they were all looking at these ideas, thinking we're never going to pull this off. And we pulled it off and then the reaction has been just so incredible, and to do that with our team and Jade was just felt really special. So again coming back out like that moment as well. So there's just loads. Yeah, it's great.

Speaker 1: 38:11

It's brilliant, and the Brit Awards was a moment, I think not just for you, of course, but the way storytelling is done on those stages. Nothing's been done like that. Normally, you know, without being rude to colleagues in the sector, sometimes it's a bit of lie, a bit of smoke and a bit of staging. This was on crack storytelling, but it was really beautiful. So well done. I had such a little proud moment again and there's things in my plan that I want to do and a big UK show, and I know that I'm going to come to you when I want to do it because A you'll indulge my craziness and you'll make it happen. So lots of people want to get into this industry.

Speaker 2: 38:55

I just wondered if there's any tips that you'd give them to pursue their creative dreams I think, um, for me it's always been about doing whatever you're doing to make sure that you can pay the bills and all that stuff. And as long as you're doing your day-to-day thing, that's keeping you happy, that's great, because you know that right here and now you're happy. Then, whilst you're doing your day to day thing, that's keeping you happy, that's great, because you know that right here and now you're happy. Then, whilst you're doing that, well, every day job I've had has made me happy. But then I've always been thinking about what I could do in my spare time to further the next part of my career.

Speaker 2: 39:29

So when I was stage managing, I was also directing music videos, music videos. When I was um at london 2012, I was also going off and doing random bits of performances with kim to try and understand more about creative direction. When I was in sochi, I was flying back every other weekend and doing a random x-factor performance as a creative director to build a showreel. Even now, 10 years on, um, we are now planning what the next 10 years are going to look like for black skull and for us, and and how that fits in with family and and all that kind of stuff. So I think you've. You've. Just if you're really passionate about something, can you you feel like you're onto a winner. It's just about. Don't wait for it to come to you. Go out and find it. Go out and chase it. Um, do it in a beautiful, respectful way, enjoy it and manifest it, because if you just keep plugging away, it does happen. I believe hustle that's.

Speaker 1: 40:23

I've got too many side hustles, but it's what it's worth it isn't it I don't really believe it is um. So we're nearly at the end of the conversation, so I've got two more things for you, and and this is one to get stuff off your chest.

Speaker 2: 40:37

Are there any?

Speaker 1: 40:37

myths or pet peeves that you want to address right now. Get it off your chest to give you a better day ahead.

Speaker 2: 41:01

No, I think one of the pet peeves would be when you see people bending the truth about what they did on a show. You know, we, we now for us, when we post our work, we try, you know, to post every single person on that job, because everyone deserves the credit, because it's all of us coming together as a team that makes the magic happen. And no matter who you are on our team, you deserve the respect. So that's what we try to do. Is, you know, as best we can? Um, you know we're always put at the bottom. If we've missed anyone, let us know, because you, just you, always forget someone. But yes, that is definitely. I think. For me, it's when you see someone as another person in the industry's instagram and it's just that slight ambiguity and you're like oh, I don't believe that's quite fair and that annoys me there was much of that after London 2012.

Speaker 2: 41:40

I will call it out and I was like I was in the room.

Speaker 1: 41:43

You didn't do that exactly. So good, that's a good one. That's a good one, and people should fight to be great. Even if you're like in an organization doing an exhibition, get yourself in the program, fight for it. It's not about space. You can always add another page. You need a show reel too, so I agree with that one. So the last thing, which everyone gets a bit stuck on this one, and it's not to get you into trouble, but you're allowed to make a cultural confession. So do you have a guilty pleasure? Have you done something that someone doesn't know about?

Speaker 2: 42:12

Let rip about that, rip god. My guilty pleasure is absolute maximalist pop. Like I am, I am a massive. I listen to what we create. That's basically me. It's not. I don't feel guilty about it. I was top top one percent of fans on my spotify, wrapped up of todrick hall, just because I absolutely love that kind of like big, bold, unapologetic pop. So, yeah, I don't. I don't as much as I listen to all like all this amazing, incredible music. What actually really gets me going bloody great pop music and I think that's reflected in your work.

Speaker 1: 42:52

Well, that experience you create to be cool.

Speaker 2: 42:55

I just try and create cool stuff well, you do that, dan.

Speaker 1: 43:01

Thank you so much for doing this I can speak to you for another 12 hours.

Speaker 1: 43:05

but thank you, I know you're super, super busy and creating more magic and I can't wait to see what you're doing next and hopefully maybe I'll win the lottery or someone's going to invest in me and I'll get to do my show with you one day. So thank you again, my pleasure. Thanks for listening to this episode of Before the Applause. Please do tell everyone about this podcast and stay connected with us across all the usual social media platforms by searching at Before Applause. If you've got any burning questions, want to share your own insights, want to recommend a guest or be one yourself, then we'd love to hear from you. You can direct message us on any of our social accounts or email studio at beforetheapplauspodcom. Welcome to this new episode of Before the Applause with me, your host, david Watson.

Speaker 1: 44:01

In this episode I talk to Harvey Bowen, or maybe better known to some as the fiercely fashioned and perfectly painted rising drag superstar Nia Thorne.

Speaker 1: 44:11

We explore their journey from a supportive childhood in the Midlands to becoming a prominent figure in the drag scene, albeit at an astonishing speed and still just 23 years old. Harvey discusses their early acceptance of identity, the importance of family support and the challenges of navigating university during the pandemic, but which ultimately led them into a creative field that's changed their life forever. We talk about the death-defying first drag performance, the growth of experience in the drag community and the significance of creating art in a challenging environment. We talk about the importance of rediscovering passion and creativity in art, pushing through when times get tough, and the significance of self-awareness and mental health. Harvey highlights the importance of community and artistic opportunities, whilst also expressing aspirations for the future, focusing on personal growth and the desire to be a household name. Above all, naya's story is a reminder that art isn't just about the sparkle on stage. It's about using creativity to spark your truth, to lift spirits and to bring light to even the darkest of times. Grab a cup of something nice and join us as we discover more. Before the applause